[hash872]

Just relative to the world that we live in now, I'm much less interested in traditional concepts of 'good and evil' and much more interested in fanaticism. While there are certainly genuinely evil human beings out there, in my (maybe totally naive, I dunno) view, they are generally not very effective- more like low-level street criminals. Psychopathy is a real thing, but I think most of them lack the foresight and patience to achieve real positions of power.

On the other hand, fanaticism where the fanatic believes they're good and their (political, racial/ethnic or religious) opponents are evil seems like approximately one billion times more of a problem in modern human society. These are the people who hold actual positions of power at every level, in every country

[pmoriarty]

The Problem of Evil is not really about "evil" people doing "evil" things... or at least only tangentially so.

It's about why there is suffering (or imperfection even) in a world created by an ostensibly omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent god.

Terrorism would qualify as being one of the causes of suffering, as would completely impersonal forces such as earthquakes, hurricanes, and diseases.

If god exists and really is omnipotent (ie. of limitless power), omniscient (knows everything), and perfectly good, why does he/she/it allow suffering?

That's the problem of evil.

[Zababa]

I don't know much about theology but couldn't this be justified as punishment for the original sin, at least in the Christian/Catholic worldview? From what I understand, the real perfect world is in paradise, after you die. But during your life you have to """prove your worth""" in a world where evil exists. Maybe the problem is on the "benevolent" part.

[pmoriarty]

"couldn't this be justified as punishment for the original sin, at least in the Christian/Catholic worldview?"

Then why did god create humans such that they could sin (and would sin, as an omniscient god knew full well they would) and then punish them for it?

It seems sadistic and perverse, and yes, it leads one to question whether god is really benevolent after all (which, if he/she/it is not would likewise shatter most major religions).

Of course religion has answers for all of these questions... mainly having to do with humans having free will or evil being a "privation of good" (ie. there's no such thing as evil, but only a lack of good), etc.. but that's where the arguments start.

[Zababa]

You're right, thanks for the explanation.

[liberalbias998]

This sort of discussion usually gets trapped in discussions about God allowing Evil in order to allow free will; but that is an evasion; especially since the universe is probably deterministic; and consciousness is probably an illusion.

The problem of evil; is logically caused by the existence of life that strives and competes within an environment of finite resources.

Give us a universe where all the beings are powered by an infinite source of energy so they don't need to chase, catch, kill and eat each other.

Problem solved; would have expected God could figure this out.

[pmoriarty]

"especially since the universe is probably deterministic"

Not at the subatomic level.. and the subatomic level may well have some significant impact on (or even be responsible for) consciousness.

"consciousness is probably an illusion"

This is an extremely controversial claim which is far from settled. We can't even settle on a definition of consciousness.

"The problem of evil; is logically caused by the existence of life that strives and competes within an environment of finite resources. Give us a universe where all the beings are powered by an infinite source of energy so they don't need to chase, catch, kill and eat each other."

Again, this explanation doesn't even attempt to account for sources of suffering that have nothing to do with human agency, such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and disease.

But even were we to focus only on humans it doesn't explain why some people actually enjoy making others suffer or hate one anohter. No amount of resources would be sufficient to fix this.

Finally, even were this a perfectly deterministic universe with no free will (which is contrary to the core beliefs of many of the major religions) in which there is suffering, then there's still the question of why a perfectly good, all-powerful, and all-knowing god made it that way.

[liberalbias998]

The hurricane events described are only natural in this Universe; there is no reason that another Universe would have harmful natural events; assuming it is created to be perfect by God.

[pmoriarty]

The Problem of Evil concerns this universe.

Why is there suffering in this universe? Why is this universe imperfect?

The possibility that another universe could be better actually argues against god being omnipotent, perfectly benevolent, or omniscient.

The standard answer from theists is that this is "the best of all possible worlds" -- a position that Voltaire satirized in Candide.

[throw0101a]

> This sort of discussion usually gets trapped in discussions about God allowing Evil in order to allow free will; but that is an evasion; especially since the universe is probably deterministic; and consciousness is probably an illusion.

If you actually think the universe is deterministic, then cross the street without looking both ways. If you were "meant" to get hit by a car, looking won't matter anyway; if you are not meant to, you'll be safe. Or perhaps play golf during a thunderstorm?

> Give us a universe where all the beings are powered by an infinite source of energy so they don't need to chase, catch, kill and eat each other.

"Man does not live by bread alone." There are needs besides beyond mere sustenance that people have:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

Your idea doesn't solve problems like jealousy and envy and a whole host of other problems people have between each other. In a performance of Swan Lake only one person can play Odette, the Swan Princess: you don't think that's not going to cause issues of jealousy?

[liberalbias998]

Because the universe is deterministic; I was taught the highway code by my mother as a child.

I agree that in a less competitive universe a being could still behave in a way that others find impolite; however you are just describing competition for non physical things; it is still competition; it could still be eliminated by God.

In this universe our daily existence depends on the physical suffering of other beings.

[tablespoon]

> Give us a universe where all the beings are powered by an infinite source of energy so they don't need to chase, catch, kill and eat each other.

> Problem solved; would have expected God could figure this out.

Why not go further? A universe that's entirely static populated by entities frozen in some joyous state has no evil. Hell, a universe that doesn't exist doesn't have evil either.

It's often pretty easy to optimize for one quality.

[liberalbias998]

I agree; what I am trying to say; is there is no excuse for God. People have spent centuries making excuses most of them much smarter people than me. In a 21st century context it seems apparent that Gods possible excuses for creating a universe that mandates suffering are running out.

[tablespoon]

> I agree; what I am trying to say; is there is no excuse for God. People have spent centuries making excuses most of them much smarter people than me. In a 21st century context it seems apparent that Gods possible excuses for creating a universe that mandates suffering are running out.

I mean, an obvious "excuse" is that he's not optimizing for the one single quality you chose (absolutely minimized suffering).

[pmoriarty]

"he's not optimizing for the one single quality you chose (absolutely minimized suffering)"

God doesn't have to choose any quality over any other.

An omnipotent god could make a universe perfect in every way... but the universe is not perfect in every way. Why not?

[throw0101a]

> On the other hand, fanaticism where the fanatic believes they're good […]

Everyone thinks they're doing good when they before an action; no need to be a "fanatic".

Speeding? I need to get there on time. Lying? Don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Stealing? I need this more than the rightful owner, and they won't miss it / insurance. Cheating? I have needs that aren't being met. Etc.