[hooplah]

Fracking did manage to drop our emissions phasing out coal. But politics gets in the way of natural gas all the time. Politics got in the way of nuclear as well.

Also, if you truly want to cut emissions, stop caring about "per capita" and force your politicians to start holding the biggest polluters accountable and the countries not decreasing their emissions.

[adamcstephens]

Who is to blame for outsourced manufacturing then? If one country consumes a vast amount of goods from another, are they not also accountable for that other country’s emissions?

[hooplah]

If you truly believe it's this dire, does it matter?

It's up to that country to cut emissions even if they accept that job on behalf of other countries.

But first, lets start on just not dumping plastic into oceans, building more coal plants, and generally not cutting emissions at all (China)

Then we can worry on the manufacturing like cement and steel (I believe we should make our own steel anyway)

The more stuff we make, the more control we have over the emissions during the process. Because apparently, other countries don't give a shit.

Go look at the countries that have cut emissions. https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/climate-change-co2-emissions...

That's the only metric that matters, anything else is propaganda for those who aren't.

[adamcstephens]

What makes you think the US gives a shit either? Companies have spent the last forty years moving manufacturing out of the country because it lets them profit a bit more. They don’t give a shit about climate change unless they can make more money off it. I’m all for bringing manufacturing back on-shore, but what makes you think the lobbyists will stop trying to undermine environmental regulations if we do?

I consider it propaganda to blame China for all its emissions, when how much of them are to build and manufacture junk for the west? No, raw emissions numbers are not “the only metric that matters” because we live in a complex world with a complex web of trade. Sure, China can and should do a much better job cutting emissions. Though if that causes production prices to go up, the American companies will just move production somewhere else that is further behind in environmental regulations.

Nobody in power gives a shit about the climate and emissions. The words you’re hearing from them don’t match their actions, and we in the US are nowhere near a sustainable level even if you ignore our outsourced energy usage.

[hooplah]

> What makes you think the US gives a shit either?

Because we cut our emissions by a lot while increasing energy output & manufacturing, and it's many people's #1 issue.

I don't remember hearing about climate change in the CCP's 100 year anniversary speech, just bloody head bashing rhetoric.

Other countries outsource to China as well, why haven't they been cutting their emissions, there's only 12 countries or so that have.

You can hand-wave China away ignoring the numbers, or how much we send over there, what they are creating, how they are creating it, but you aren't doing the Earth any favor.

All of that doesn't address their new coal factories or plastic dumping either. Let's get a handle on that. Then let's worry about the manufacturing emissions as we don't even have alternative solutions for concrete or steel yet. Fair?

[adamcstephens]

I’m not hand waving China’s emissions away, and explicitly said they can and should do more. If and when they decide to deal with the problem, I expect they’ll make a lot more progress than we have.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree that America is trying to cut emissions. There seems to be neither political nor corporate will to do so. Furthermore Americans have zero desire for reducing their standard of living to help the planet.

[hooplah]

> If and when they decide to deal with the problem I expect they’ll make a lot more progress than we have.

Sure. I will update my stance if or when the CCP decides to do something, especially if they shoot past everyone in reduced emissions.

I won't hold my breath though, unless I'm in Shanghai's smog.

[pastage]

This is an global issue it's up to everyone to lower emissions, exporting all your factories to China has been the solution for all of those countries. We can not blame China for that.

[hooplah]

Again, I support moving more manufacturing to the US for sure.

And we can demand our politicians to do that so we can control emissions, as well as try to hold countries accountable through sanctions. (don't buy any slave-made products, don't buy any coal-made products)

We can certainly blame China for building coal factories, dumping plastic in the ocean, and generally just not giving a fuck about human rights or environmental rights.

I don't take anyone serious who advocates green policies without holding the biggest polluters accountable who aren't changing their ways.

The "per capita" and "outsourcing" points are propaganda used to deflect responsibility. Unless you have a stat how much emissions come from that outsourcing you are waiving their responsibility via a talking point.

Also, we're not talking about making emissions zero, we're talking about LOWERING. So even if they didn't cut emissions for the stuff they make for us, cutting domestic emissions should still lower their overall emissions. China isn't getting more factories, factories are moving out, so we should see a decrease.