[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

> For all the recycling I’ve done, a single factory can undo in just a day.

Tangential, but recycling is much less effective the reduced consumption.

I think the problem with policy makers not moving on this front is a reflection of people not doing so. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to make people even believe in something that would require them to sacrifice their lifestyle, let alone actually commit to doing something about it. To that end, the continued talk about climate change is necessary to hammer into our thick skulls that yes indeed this is a real problem and we really should do something about it and pressure our policy makers to make it a priority even if it means we can't have the same luxurious lifestyle we're accustomed to.

[CubsFan1060]

People are very good at making small changes that make them feel good, but don't actually impact their lifestyle or require any sacrifice.

Paper straws? Not a bad thing, but if you really care about the environment, using a paper straw while at a bar in country on the other side of the world that you flew to is not helpful.

Additionally, people like to see the problem as "out there". i.e. my recycling is pointless because a factory undoes it. Well, the factory is building something... that you are buying. If the factory building (let's say cars) doesn't have anyone to sell the cars to, they aren't going to continue building them.

[JohnWhigham]

I think most consumer-facing plastics need to go. They're one of the major catalysts, if not the catalyst for our hyperconsumerist habits. Go back to glass bottles for things. Give subsidies to companies that use glass for inventory loss and such. Bring back the milkman who refills your empty jugs.

[cranekam]

IMO the focus on plastics is a distraction. We'd be much better served by building buildings that last longer (I live in Switzerland and I'm surrounded by 50 year old concrete buildings being knocked down and replaced with concrete apartments at the cost of god knows how much co2) and need less energy (noticed how old cities with narrow streets stay cool in the sun? Much better than glass-fronted apartments), reducing land use change, taxing transport appropriately, taxing meat, and so on. But those are hard and complaining that too much clingfilm is used is easy, so here we are.

I'm sure someone will say "but we need to start somewhere!". That's true, but we don't really have time for starting small. And often the alternatives are no better anyway — lots of people bought cotton bags to replace single-use plastic ones at the supermarket but that's probably worse for the environment than just continuing to use plastic (a cotton bag needs to be used hundreds of times to have a lower impact). I know that people mean well but we're all just getting stuck on trivial but attainable micro-goals while the world slowly burns around us.

Unfortunately I believe that unless our economic and political systems ("grow the economy by digging stuff from the ground and making things to sell" and "don't do anything to annoy the people you need to vote for you in N years") change neither will the climate crisis, meaningfully. And this makes me sad and terrified.

[gruez]

>Go back to glass bottles for things. Give subsidies to companies that use glass for inventory loss and such. Bring back the milkman who refills your empty jugs.

Shouldn't we tax the externalities of plastic and let the market decide whether it's worth it? In your example of using glass bottles: sure it gets rid of plastic, but what about the costs of glass? eg. increased weight or energy/water needed to clean them. As for bringing back the milkman, how is driving a truck door to door delivering exclusively milk more efficient than picking it up on your way to the grocery store?

[CubsFan1060]

I wonder if you could combine all of these ideas. What if you had a truck that traveled around and refilled your shampoo, laundry soap, dish soap, milk, soda, etc.. bottles. I'm thinking a truck that has what looks like a bunch of tap handles on the side and just refills things. Eliminates some trips, disposable containers, etc...

[JohnWhigham]

Shouldn't we tax the externalities of plastic and let the market decide whether it's worth it?

If that were enacted tomorrow, every business would just eat the cost and raise prices.

but what about the costs of glass? eg. increased weight or energy/water needed to clean them.

That's what federal subsidies are for. Make it worth it to use glass, or some other material other than plastic. Subsidies are how we got cheap dairy and meat, why can't it be used for other things?

how is driving a truck door to door delivering exclusively milk more efficient than picking it up on your way to the grocery store?

I was just spitballing, more rhetorical than anything. Milkmen used to be everywhere delivering milk in glass bottles before the plastics lobby and dairy subsidies drove them to extinction.

[gruez]

I think you're missing the point. You want us to switch on the assumption that plastic is intrinsically bad and glass is intrinsically good, without going through the analysis to confirm whether it's actually the case. Sure, glass has benefits compared to plastic, but it also has costs. Should we switch to glass even if it's 2x more expensive (in dollar terms) than plastic? What about 3x? 5x? What about in terms of environmental terms (eg. energy use/water use)? If using glass produces 2x the greenhouse gasses overall, should we still use it? What about 3x? 5x?

A good point of comparison would be plastic bags vs paper bags vs cotton bags. I think most people "feel" that plastic bags are bad and should be replaced with the alternatives, but paper bags are equal to plastic bags when you only look at climate impact, but is 43x worse than LDPE bags when factoring in "all indicators". Should we still switch to paper bags in this case?

https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

They already have filtered water refill stations in some grocery stores, they could theoretically do the same for milk (and other products) without bringing back delivery people.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

I have a friend who tried for a time to avoid all plastic in his consumption habits. Trust me when I tell you he is not a pampered individual, having once told me "as long as I'm still shivering I'm not 'too cold'". He deemed the task pretty much impossible, so wide-spread is the use of plastics.

Which is all to say that I totally agree.

[Fauntleroy]

Absolutely everything on store shelves should be in super-basic, cheap, easy to recycle cardboard (or similar) containers with a focus on how their packaging will live on in the, uh, "trash cycle". I know capitalism and "freedom" are in direct opposition to this, but the current system is just _so incredibly wasteful_ I can't help but fantasize about a better way.

Edit: there's a small glimmer of hope in the way some consumer goods are shipped from places like Amazon (in special ship-to-consumer only basic packaging). Then again those are coming from Amazon, which is ironic in its own way.

[simiones]

> Unfortunately, it is very difficult to make people even believe in something that would require them to sacrifice their lifestyle, let alone actually commit to doing something about it.

There's also the major problem that history's most sophisticated propaganda machine - the PR and advertising industry - is almost entirely focused on getting people to consume more of everything. Buy a new phone each year, buy a new car, buy a new fridge, buy a new washing machine, buy new clothes every week, buy more toys, always more more more.

The truth is that it will be impossible to stop the worse effects of global warming if we don't significantly reduce consumption of most things to older rates: people used to have one fridge their entire lives. A smartphone should last at least 10 years. Furniture should last generations. Clothes should last years.

[peytn]

> the continued talk about climate change is necessary

That’s been going on for fifty years at least. Personally I think we should try to come up with solutions that are more attractive to people instead of pushing the same tired asceticism stuff.

Billions of people aspire to drive a Tesla. Let’s do more of that.

[GrumpyNl]

Buy a little land, plant some trees and enjoy them. Its cheaper than you think.