[themodelplumber]

> our current system is designed

Do people really believe this language is accurate or likely to be helpful? What are we going to do, locate the designer and thwart their evil plan? Or attempt to locate the blueprint?

It seems to me that this kind of wording gives way too much credit to human consciousness.

[Mandelmus]

It's a collective design that's been arrived at iteratively over many generations but it's still designed insofar that it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures, cultural norms, legal constructs, and institutions that in concert further our current system.

[themodelplumber]

> it's composed of countless consciously created and refined incentive structures

So you don't suppose there's much unconsciously created and refined structure to it?

We hear so much about anxiety and pressure being rampant in modern society. I just wonder why mention of these (and other, unwanted, disavowed) forces is always left out of all the design talk. It seems to me to be the perfect setup for the worst parts of tomorrow's "design"...

[cirrus3]

He obviously doesn't. He is leaning hard on his highly questionable algorithmic narrative and has no actual clue on how real life works for many people or any exposure to it off his keyboard.

It is sad for everyone really knowing these people exist.

[Mandelmus]

That escalated quickly. From disagreeing with my comment to lamenting I exist is a bit of an extreme jump, wouldn't you say?

[cirrus3]

Mandelmus that is a lot of meaningless words to avoid the recognition that there are systematic objectives in play to repress others. "collective design" is stupid fancy term and you will look dumb saying that in person to anyone in real life.

[Mandelmus]

I'm not trying to avoid that recognition at all! But somebody put those systemic objectives and incentive structures into place. The fact that societies like the ones described in the podcast have such different incentive structures is proof that it's possible for humans to collectively design a different system, rather than assuming it's all just fallen from the heavens, i.e. the inevitable outcome of immutable "human nature".

[cirrus3]

Mandelmus

blah blah blah. Stop. Think like a human capable of empathy and less like an algorithm for once. Society is not as simple as the hardest problem you have or will ever have to think about. And guess what, you would not pass that interview.

[Mandelmus]

I did not mean to come across as unempathetic, on the contrary! My view is that only if you admit some level of design in our inhumane system can you even expect that we can change anything about it. If it were all automatic, doesn't that make it basically inevitable and merely 'natural'?

[tolbish]

Would "built" have sufficed?

[themodelplumber]

Was it built Ford tough? Who built it, why, how? Do we even think we have satisfactory answers to these questions (especially in the broader scope)? Do we want tomorrow's "thing we built" to be better?

[barnaclejive]

^ this