[samjbobb]

I think this is reasonable advice, in some settings. But for many of us, I think it’s just not practical anymore.

The lines have become too blurred. I work from home, I have one office and one desk. The computer on the desk was purchased by my company but other stuff wasn’t like my mouse or my iPad. I have work Slack on my phone, which is my personal phone. I know I should be, but I’m just not that careful anymore about what I do where.

Granted, I work for a startup. It’s a MBP they had shipped directly from Apple to me. I set it up and configured it myself.

The GitHub Balanced Employee IP Agreement acknowledges that this distinction is arbitrary and unhelpful:

> In California the main difference made by BEIPA is that IP developed with company equipment or relating to the company's business, but in an employee's free time and which the employee is not involved in as an employee, is not owned by the company (but the company does get a non-exclusive and unlimited license if the IP relates to the company's business). This recognizes that from the employee perspective, segregating one's life activities based on ownership of devices at hand or relatedness to an employer's potentially vast range of business that an individual employee is not involved with as an employee imposes significant cognitive overhead and often doesn't happen in practice, whatever agreements state.

- https://github.com/github/balanced-employee-ip-agreement

I hope that more employee agreements move this direction so we can stop trying to enforce this distinction.

[sjfidsfkds]

If your employer wants you to have Slack on a phone, they should buy you a phone. That’s been my situation across multiple employers for 5+ years.

I plug the same monitor and mouse into a work computer and a personal computer. This isn’t hard - you can use a single dongle with all of your inputs so you only need to swap one plug. Or you could use some kind of KVM switch.

I understand that startups may not want the expense of buying hardware for their employees, and you might not want to buy your own laptop, but if you end up building something valuable in your personal time, it’s in your interest to keep these things separate. For example, you might work on a side-project which is somehow related to your employer’s business, and eventually decide to quit and start your own company. You’ll be in a more secure legal position if you used your own device for that. You might judge that you aren’t likely do do that, but you should think through the trade-off.

The GitHub agreement sounds like an improvement, but most companies don’t use it. I’m not sure how well it protects your interests. If you’re working at odd hours because you’re receiving notifications on a personal device, while you’re also working on your side-project on a work device, would lawyers agree on what is personal and what is work?

[stock_toaster]

> If your employer wants you to have Slack on a phone, they should buy you a phone. That’s been my situation across multiple employers for 5+ years.

I wholeheartedly agree with computers/systems, and keeping things separate there.. but two phones? Who wants to carry around two phones just for staying on top of slack during _off hours_?

If the company isn't ok with me using slack on my personal phone, then I'll only use slack on the supplied computer during business hours (eg. they get no mobile slack out of me at all). Either that or I find a different job. Life is too short to deal with so many devices and the hassle of it all.

[wikibob]

A better question is why do you feel the need to “stay on top of slack” during your non work hours?

Having entirely separate devices is BY FAR the best thing I have done for my mental health and productivity. Same as other posters here.

[sagichmal]

I love my job and I love my life and I deliberately blend them together. This makes me substantially more productive as an employee, and incalculably happier as a human being.

If I want to see a friend in the middle of the day, I do it. If I want to take a 3 hour lunch, I do it. When someone 8 time zones away answers a question I asked earlier at my 1AM, and I’m awake and see it, I’m excited to learn the new whatever thing, and may take an hour (or three!) to chat with them about it.

Everything I do in life I have opted into and enjoy. I gain nothing by firewalling some parts of it from other parts.

I have tried every modality of managing work and personal life and this one is by far —- by far —- the best one for me. The notion that there is a work laptop and a personal laptop and naer the twain shall meet is a complete anachronism. It’s fine if that separation helps other people but it actively hurts me.

[jjav]

> The notion that there is a work laptop and a personal laptop and naer the twain shall meet is a complete anachronism. It’s fine if that separation helps other people but it actively hurts me.

Wow.. All I can suggest is think through the consequences. Unless you work for yourself or a very tiny startup, your employer is monitoring everything you do and store on the work computer.

You may also get cut off at any moment with zero notice if there are layoffs. If you had any personal content there, you've lost it.

Also, depending on where you live, but it can also mean now the company has a strong ownership claim to anything and everything you do in side projects since it is being done on company equipment.

[midasuni]

I work for a large company, I have a desktop machine, I fail to see how the company would have access to it (assuming they aren’t using any zero day exploits etc to attack it). They don’t have my private ssh key so can’t ssh in, it sits on my desk at home so they have no physical access. It came straight from the factory and I installed vanilla Ubuntu on it.

[oauea]

This is such a hilariously American post. I realize most of this forum is American, but still. :-)

[50]

For some odd reason, I instantly thought of Foucault's idea of biopower[1][2] after reading your comment as a possible counterpoint, despite not being well-versed in the subject.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopower [2]: https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/8237/8/Review%20article%20-%20...

[sagichmal]

That’s fun! Yeah, I buy it, but to the extent it works as a counterargument I’d say it’s actually more of an inevitability.

[Aeolun]

Having a work phone that you cannot be reached on outside of standard work hours kind of defeats the purpose right? At least that is the sole reason I can think of that I would need a work phone in the first place.

[wikibob]

The purpose of a work phone is to carry it during the specifically agreed upon period that you are actively on-call.

And you should be compensated specifically for that on call time. A standard is 1/3 of your on call time out of business hours is credited as PTO hours for 30 minute response.

Or 2/3 of your on call time out of business hours is credited as PTO hours for 5 minute response.

[stock_toaster]

Why else would an employer want you to use slack on a phone? "On-Call" devops rotation or something like that?

Same rules apply even in that case. If you can't txt/page/slack me on my personal phone, then you don't get me "on-call". I'm _not_ going to carry two phones for anyone ever again (been there, done that, hated it).

[tut-urut-utut]

> I wholeheartedly agree with computers/systems, and keeping things separate there.. but two phones? Who wants to carry around two phones just for staying on top of slack during _off hours_?

I have no issues carrying the work phone with me during the _working hours_. But off hours I just leave it next to the car keys, so I don't forget to take it with me the next morning. Just because I have a work phone that I didn't ask for doesn't mean I have to carry it with myself or even check off hours. It is useful only to have a toy to play with during the boring face-to-face meetings.

I

[XorNot]

There's a virtualized Android concepts out there, but I really want it to go further. I already have dual sim in my phone, but Android has essentially no support for multiple independent copies of individual apps.

Of course, workplaces tend to insist on remote data wipe functionality and that's a big nope from the get go.

The sad thing is, Google could fix this and use their authoritative position to declare it safe: support multiple encryption keys in the secure enclave on a device, encrypt apps associated with different profiles with different keys, and allow registering "work" keys as remote wipeable. Throw in some sort of copy+paste restriction option to satisfy the pedant IT managers who think cameras aren't cheap and common.

[modeless]

Haven't you just described Android's existing work profile feature? It works exactly like that as far as I'm aware.

Work profile requires explicit support from your IT department, but Android also supports multiple user accounts on one device (each gets their own lock screen, home screen, app switcher, notification shade, settings, installed apps, etc), so you could segregate things that way too if you can't get your IT department to support work profile.

I feel like multiple user accounts is an underappreciated feature of Android. I just got an iPad and it's a real drag that you can only have one Apple ID logged in on it, one set of apps, one home screen, etc. Tablets are made to be shared.

[discordance]

Island (https://island.oasisfeng.com/) let’s you have multiple sandboxed apps running.

[sodality2]

Shelter is identical but FOSS/without analytics: https://f-droid.org/packages/net.typeblog.shelter/

>Q: Why not use Island by OasisFeng, the creator of Greenify?

>A: Simply because it is not an FOSS app and it bundles with non-free SDKs. Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean that Island has anti-features like tracking (and I don’t think it has either), it’s just that I wrote Shelter as an FOSS replacement of it. There is no other reason why one would prefer Shelter over Island except for this one.

[discordance]

Thank you!

[toastal]

If carrying two phones is not feasible, why would carrying two laptops be? I've done work and person projects traveling through different countries at hotels and coffee shops pre-pandemic, and there is no way I would carry two phones OR two laptops.

[soperj]

why the hell would you want to stay on top of work during off hours?

[GekkePrutser]

Personally I like blurring the lines between work and private life. Do some personal stuff during work hours (no more messing around getting time off to go to the dentist or the bank - I just book a meeting in my calender and go). Answer a quick question while I'm on the subway. Spend an hour at night helping out a colleague in the US with an urgent problem when I have nothing better to do anyway. I'll just sleep in in the morning when things are quiet. I love this.

What matters also is that I really like my work. And it isn't forced on me or even expected in the slightest. It's nice when I can pop in when I'm off and help out. If not it's fine too. Flexibility.

For me this works. I understand it doesn't work for many others like yourself. But that doesn't mean it should be made impossible for me (like some countries do, e.g. in France forcing work email to stop after hours).

[version_five]

I'm happy to see this is not just me with this perspective. Especially with WFH, I routinely work out, do groceries, go for a walk, or just read during work time (I'm self employed but the pattern has not changed at all since I left my salaried job). I make up for it by working at other times that work for me, and if e.g. I'm reading a book, I'll keep Slack on the phone so I can be available for a discussion. Most of my team at my last job was similar, usually with some set of disconnected times, e.g. for family stuff. Some would sleep in and work late, some would have supper early and put kids to bed, then work some more... I like this approach so much better than being stuck somewhere for 8 hours forced to try to be productive.

[aix1]

I think this mixes up two things: (1) segmentor-integrator dichotomy and (2) flexible working patterns.

For example, I am an extreme segmentor (two laptops and two phones, both of which are either off or put away in silent mode when I'm not working; zero work-related stuff on any personal devices).

At the same, my working patterns are very flexible. I just look at my diary first thing in the morning to figure which meetings I need to attend, and plan the rest of the day however I see fit. Going to the gym, for a run, sitting outside to read, running errands or getting a massage in the middle of the day are all completely normal.

I encourage my reports to take a similarly flexible approach to working, regardless of where they are on the segmentor-integrator spectrum (most of them are integrators).

[ghaff]

Same. I don't overwork. Except maybe when I travel but I like travel. If I'm "off the clock" whether vacation or after 5, I'm not going to (nor be expected to) suddenly spend the rest of the night dealing with something. But maybe I can write an email or two or take a quick look at a doc which helps someone. And, as you say, I don't feel guilty going to the store or the dentist during the day.

[taneq]

I like working like this too - I want to be able to work when inspiration strikes, or when my customers need me, and not be forced to busywork when it's not necessary. Of course, it helps that my work is really my hobby and, to some degree, what I do for fun.

I also want to be fairly compensated, though, and if I'm lying awake at 4am solving the hard problems because I'm so engrossed in my project that I'm dreaming about it, the only really fair compensation is a percentage of the profits. So for me, since nowhere I've worked is willing to contemplate a profit-share arrangement, this kind of work only really works if I own the company.

[thrashh]

For some of us, we kind of make up off hours as we go. If it’s 2pm and I’m bored and I have no meetings, I might just take 3 hours off and go to the park or gym, and if a coworker has a question during that time, I don’t mind answering it.

I prefer to do things whenever I want to do them and not bother with “on” and “off” hours.

[stock_toaster]

Exactly. It is nice for "flex-work"--go walk the dog or run some errands or something, but still be "semi-available" for questions, but not "at the computer".

[meepmorp]

Schadenfreude

[rodgerd]

> Who wants to carry around two phones just for staying on top of slack during _off hours_?

Why would I be doing that?

[slipframe]

What's the point of having phones thinner than razor blades, if not to facilitate carrying two of them? I think I could stack 5 or more phones and they'd still easily fit in my pocket.

[mike_d]

> If your employer wants you to have Slack on a phone, they should buy you a phone

...and if you want to have personal stuff on a laptop you should buy your own.

[alkonaut]

I think most of us are in the situation that our employers don’t explicitly want us to have Slack/Teams on our phones. They want us to be available.

Slack/Teams on my (personal) phone means I can run an errand in the middle of the day and still be available. I’m happy to use my personal device for it. The alternative is having much less flexibility.

If my employer expected me to be available outside office hours or when not at my computer it would be a completely different story. Like if I was on call. Then I’d demand they pay for my smartphone too.

[ghaff]

As someone who worked before there were smartphones--indeed, before there were mainstream cellphones and laptops--I'm acutely aware of just how "chained to your desk" you used to be in that, if you weren't there, you couldn't be reached. Of course, you were sometimes in meetings. But, for the most part, you really needed to be sitting at your desk most of the day if only because someone might call you with a question. (Yes, a sales rep calling me on the phone as a product manager was the norm.)

[rtpg]

OK so they buy you the phone.

Shouldn't the thing _actually be_ "if they want you to have Slack on your phone, they should pay you for availability during off hours"? The phone buying is a basically one-time cost from their perspective.

[sharken]

Very much agree, a phone should either be for personal use or work.

With 2FA being more common in the workplace it just makes sense to have that on the work phone.

[u801e]

I actually have a RSA token key fob which I keep on the same keyring as my home keys.

[sharken]

That seems like a fair mix of workplace and personal stuff.

As for a RSA token key fob or phone text for 2FA, i prefer the phone as it can also show upcoming meetings and mails.

Though it's easier to forget the phone than your keys i'd say.

[grillvogel]

ive got a wireless mouse and keyboard that support multiple devices, so i dont even need to swap the plug. to use my personal computer i just switch the monitor input and the mode on the mouse/keyboard.

[winrid]

> "It's just not practical anymore."

HARD disagree. Use a separate personal machine and a KVM switch or hub/dock.

I work from home, and I just switch machines. I also have cut off times for when I am allowed to do personal things vs work.

The more you mix play and work, the worse both end up being.

[moooo99]

> HARD disagree. Use a separate personal machine and a KVM switch or hub/dock.

This! Especially with Thunderbolt being widely available n high end machines, switching between computers is easier than it ever was. I have a work Windows machine and a personal Macbook. Switching from work to personal system is a matter of unplugging and changing a single cable.

[astockwell]

FWIW, with JAMF, your employer can ship it straight from Apple to your door, and still get their MDM all over it the second it connects to the internet the 1st time.

[rand49an]

I understand this sort of thing pisses people off but Windows Autopilot and automatic enrolment into Intune has been an incredible help this last year.

Where I work we managed to ship thousands of laptops to students homes from the manufacturers during lockdown and but still ensured that they had the correct E-Safety software and configurations on them when they turned them on for the first time.

[GekkePrutser]

Apple DEP (== Autopilot) on Mac can still by bypassed by simply not connecting to the internet when going through the setup wizard.

On iOS however, it can't. iOS won't let itself activate without internet.

[Terretta]

Any product leveraging the built in MDM hooks can do this, no need to single out JAMF.

[astockwell]

Indeed, MSFT launched similar. JAMF was just the most well known in the Mac ecosystem.

[jjav]

> FWIW, with JAMF, your employer can ship it straight from Apple to your door, and still get their MDM all over it the second it connects to the internet the 1st time.

How would that work?

[ikornaselur]

You buy the hardware through an Apple business portal and Apple will register the machine to your MDM server. The first thing the laptop does when being set up is to check if it should download MDM configuration.

We do this for all Macs and iPhones for our employees, we buy them directly through our Apple business portal and it all automatically registers to our JAMF account.

[jjav]

Any technical resource/paper with the details on this?

This seems ripe for exploiting for nefarious purposes. With Apple having built it, all it takes is one court order targeting a serial# and it auto-installs full remote control spyware on that mac?

[astockwell]

Yep, it's based on device certs.

[varispeed]

Do you charge your company for desk space at your house?

It's not being talked about much, but since companies are okay paying landlords billions, they seem to be shy to pay their employees for use of their homes as offices.

[Sebb767]

> Do you charge your company for desk space at your house?

Do you charge your company for your commute to the office?

I can see where you are coming from, but charging the company for office space in your home is a bit over the top IMO - paying for the setup should be sufficient. Additionally, working from home comes with time and money savings for you (unless your answered "yes" to the question above), so it's not like they're using your space with only disadvantages to you. Lastly, renting out the space in your office might come with further drawbacks, as the company could demand more control of the space it is paying for.

[Aaargh20318]

> Do you charge your company for your commute to the office?

Travel expenses for your commute are pretty standard. My employer offers either a per-kilometer amount (if you travel by car) or a train subscription, if you travel by public transport.

[rad_gruchalski]

> I can see where you are coming from, but charging the company for office space in your home is a bit over the top

Why? What about electricity bills?

> so it's not like they're using your space with only disadvantages to you

Then put it in contract as a home office agreement and not assume that everyone is okay with it.

[seb1204]

During the pandemic I had colleagues sitting in their garage for one full year. These was spot no other place to be. Other younger colleagues has studios where they said when they sit up straight in their bed they are at the ' office'. So to me this is a discussion we should have. In Australia and Germany there are tax deductions for utilities as far as I know.

[etripe]

> Do you charge your company for your commute to the office?

Companies tend to pay people for their commute here in Belgium. This can take the form of paying your train pass, a reimbursement per kilometre travelled or even a company car + fuel card.

That doesn't cover the hours spent travelling, of course.

[varispeed]

> I can see where you are coming from, but charging the company for office space in your home is a bit over the top IMO

This thinking is fascinating. Why do you think company shouldn't be paying for use of someone's property?

[underbluewaters]

When I had a sizable house in an affordable area using a home office felt like a blessing. After moving closer to the office and renting in an expensive area this past year has been... difficult. I'm essentially paying 800/month in rent for the space my wife and I have been working out of.

I can weather this as a temporary pandemic measure but for some of my early-career colleagues it's a very serious burden.

[falcolas]

I don’t, but with the mandatory work from home last year came a nice office setup stipend.

[dorian-graph]

> I think this is reasonable advice, in some settings. But for many of us, I think it’s just not practical anymore.

I too disagree, and aside from that, it's such a defeatist attitude.

[robtherobber]

I agree. But I think we need to look at these things even further.

It's sensible to separate the two in principle, but the arguments forwarded by the author seem to ignore the actual substance of the issue here: that people ar not machines that can genuinely do "work" and "play" separately and that employers should not have that sort of power in the first place.

The world we should strive to build is not one where security issues are entirely removed from the equation or where employees become perfectly aligned with their employer's business needs, but one where most individuals of the society lead healthy, fulfilling, meaningful lives.

As such, it's not the employees that should remove their humanity from teh workplace, it's the workplace - the employer - that should be take (many) steps back and allow people to be people.

[loa_in_]

I understand that visual arts or being a writer are considered a different businesses than IT, that's a pretty common sense, but I guess if you're doing a website on a company property where their business is embedded systems this could be qualified as the same business (IT)?