[pdamoc]

Hate is such a strong word and most likely not the best description here.

We all have beliefs about reality and these beliefs generate a lot of emotions. We also interact with our beliefs as if they are the reality and seldom question them. This is true for both more conservative or traditionalist beliefs and for ultra-progressive beliefs.

When the beliefs about reality clash, as they inevitably do, people sometimes find it hard to take a more inclusive perspective and try to find our shared humanity. Unfortunately, most of the time they activate the old ingroup-outgroup distinction, Us vs Them and the Them must be destroyed.

Just because someone don't share ALL of your beliefs does not mean that they hate you.

[bigbillheck]

> does not mean that they hate you

Those "Jendra Identitty" things look like they're coming pretty close.

[gopiandcode]

I wonder how many of the people defending or downsizing Nina Paley's position have seen the offending content - irrespective of how you feel about trans issues, representing trans women as such offensive caricatures (as violent club-wielding male genetalia) seems like sufficient grounds to label someone as hating trans-people.

Imagine if someone had drawn similarly offensive caricatures of black people or any other minority? Would you hesitate to claim that they were racist and hated the targeted minority?

I admire Nina Paley for her advocacy of free culture (both public domain artwork and free software), but it is somewhat saddening to her take such a hateful stance.

[emacsen]

> I wonder how many of the people defending or downsizing Nina Paley's position have seen the offending content

Exactly. Nina likes to pretend that she is simply "exploring the issue critically" or that pronouns are "a debate" rather than about the rights of individuals to live their lives. She'll bring up bizzare "talking points" like (and this is a direct quote) "They're trying to kill gay men by turning them into women".

I worked with Nina at QuestionCopyright.org, the organization that she was (perhaps still is?) Artist in Residence of.

I also moved cities in part to be closer to Nina and other QCO folks. (This didn't work out as they moved away from NYC just as I moved there).

I've had many conversations with her, as well as not only following her social media, but also curating one of the channels where her work was shown for a while.

I spoke with her on the phone about these issues specifically, and how posts showing the "Snowflake Flag" and parody songs like "If it has a penis, it's a man" were actively hurting people.

> Imagine if someone had drawn similarly offensive caricatures of black people or any other minority? Would you hesitate to claim that they were racist and hated the targeted minority?

Yes and! If a friend called you up on the phone (as I did with Nina) and said "Let me explain to you how the things you're drawing are not only offensive, but actively harmful" and they kept doing it despite that, I think it would be reasonable to conclude that the artist was placing their own freedom of expression above the well being of the minority.

Moreover, if the artist only targeted one group over and over, then one would be reasonable to conclude that this was a specific, targeted effort to harm that minority.

> I admire Nina Paley for her advocacy of free culture (both public domain artwork and free software), but it is somewhat saddening to her take such a hateful stance.

I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

[zozbot234]

> They're trying to kill gay men by turning them into women

I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. Trans-activists themselves have been emphatically raising awareness about gender dysphoria being a critical risk factor for suicide. You think healthy gay or bi males who increasingly get told by trans-activists that their non-heteronormative gender presentation means "they're not really a man" and should surgically transition to female are not going to experience dysphoria after transitioning?

[bigbillheck]

> You think healthy gay or bi males who increasingly get told by trans-activists

Has this actually happened, or is it the same kind of thing as those child sex rings in pizzeria basements?

[sterlind]

If anything, they'd maybe be told that they're non-binary? and most non-binary people do not medically transition in any way..

but I know a number of very femme cis gay men, I've never told them they were any kind of trans, and they're quite happy. I think this is a conspiracy theory.

[howinteresting]

There is not a single "trans activist" who wants to deliberately induce dysphoria in people. Many of us know what dysphoria feels like: why would we want to make other people suffer for no reason?

Trans activism is about giving people the ability to self-determine their gender presentation, their personal identity and their sexual characteristics. It's about liberating us (all of us, cis and trans alike) from oppressive notions of sex essentialism and medical gatekeeping. Fundamentally it's about shifting the source of truth to one's personal experience rather than societal messaging of any sort, i.e the exact opposite of what you describe.

Again, for the record: we have no interest in telling anyone with a non-normative gender presentation that they're likely trans. We want to get rid of the idea of telling people what they are in the first place. We want to replace it with the idea that people themselves are the best judges of what they are.

[morelisp]

One of the ways you can tell Paley's position is not worth deeper intellectual consideration is the number of outright contradictions in it.

"If it has a penis it's a man" but trans women who have had bottom surgery are also still men. Biology defines gender but also womanhood is in crisis because "our connection to ancient goddess worship is completely broken" and trans activism is "a continuation of the erasure of the Goddess." Transition is a form of colonization but also the Age of Reason produced the only coherent conception of gender. Trans activists are forcing queer cis men to get bottom surgery, but the problem with trans women is that they don't get enough surgery like they did in the good old days. The writing is to sexual freedom and gender studies what a Gish Gallop is to evolution.

[howinteresting]

Hate is an incredibly appropriate description for someone who mocks people like me while simultaneously advocating for changes in public policy.

If there's anything to be learned from critical race theory it's that structures matter much more than interpersonal relationships.