[dQw4w9WgXcQ]

>substituting titillations for profound organic satisfactions, cleverness for wisdom, and jagged surprises for beauty...

...And porn for relationships and intimacy. If there's any modern ill that has exacerbated our inability to be comfortable with boredom (which is essentially inner loneliness) it's porn. It's an escape for loneliness and a terrible salve that leaves the intrinsic desires for intimacy and connection unfulfilled, akin to drinking salt water to cure thirst.

A psychological pandemic in its own right, and you can't escape its ubiquity and influence.

[tomp]

Meh. I've been watching porn since forever. My taste in porn has informed my real-life taste, and vice versa (in particular, I detest make-up / fakeness, both in porn and in real life).

Still, I find real people infinitely more fulfilling and have always put effort into seeking real relationships, sexual and romantic.

(I estimate porn is similar to gambling - some people's psychology makes them more susceptible to addiction of any kind.)

[serverholic]

Yes I think what is not a problem for some can be a massive problem for others.

[dQw4w9WgXcQ]

Meh. I've been going to bars since forever. I'm not like that guy over there who pounds a 12 pack every night and has no standards for what he funnels down his gullet. Despite my habitual usage and inability to refrain from the activity for any extended period of time, I estimate his psychology must make him the addict. For me it's a matter of refinement and my consciously-engaged frontal-lobe awareness of the fine hops and spirits that elevates me to a connoisseur of the boozy arts.

[Dylan16807]

If you hadn't inserted "inability to refrain" out of nowhere, you could have been describing a perfectly ordinary (though pretentious) non-alcoholic. And you inserted that based on absolutely nothing, so good work.

[r0b05]

While many functioning porn users will dismiss your comment as nonsense, I believe it really is a massive problem in society.

Porn in its current iteration, is similar to social media in that it literally programs your brain. We program computers but are ignorant to the fact that computers can program our behaviour if we are not careful. Yes, it is a poor substitute for intimacy but it also creates dangerous thought patterns and belief systems. These so called kinks have little to do with healthy sexual biological functioning. The perversions can become so ingrained that one will see it in real life instead of what is actually there.

Remember, that a human being is programmed through our beliefs and habits, which are formed through repetitions. So be extremely careful of what you consume in this age of the Internet.

[beebeepka]

Preaching posts like yours are more dangerous than whatever excess porn consumption may do to people's brains.

[k__]

True.

While I think that the porn industry has inherent problems and some people get addicted to it. For me its preachers like GP that are doing our society a great disservice by moralizing and putting perfectly normal humam behaviors down as "perversion".

[beebeepka]

Exactly. People shouldn't be free to do things rusty cans don't approve because our society is at stake here!

There's only one solution to each problem and it's what this wise, moral person is selling because if it works for them, then it's the only possible truth.

[Spooky23]

It’s acceptable to have a position or opinion, civilly stated.

Any of the common “vices” like gambling, porn, Skinner box games, some drugs are difficult for people to manage. That dopamine hit burns behavioral pathways into the brain and is tough to undo.

[angrais]

Why are you (and others in this thread) grouping porn with drugs and gambling? To me, this does not make any sense.

Watching porn is not a bad thing. Obviously, if you're talking about addiction then perhaps, but do you think people are addicted to porn (on average) to the extent others are to those other vices?

Likewise, gambling and drugs impact you both physically and mentally, whereas the evidence for porn's impact on either is questionable at best.

[Spooky23]

Watching porn in of itself is no more a bad thing than playing poker or a video game. I’m not making a moral judgment.

Like gambling, it’s easy to fall into a behavior pattern that is similar to gambling. ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4600144/ ) I’m not sure of the pervasiveness of gambling or porn addiction, it isn’t my field.

There’s a reason why online porn pivoted to a model similar to YouTube — it’s a model that drives engagement, and you very commonly hear evidence that YouTube has a very significant addiction, even for toddlers.

[angrais]

I see, good point about falling into similar patterns regarding gambling.

Although I disagree. I'm not sure if porn has a model that drives engagement?

Let's be honest, are most people really watching porn, having a wank, then watching the rest of the porn? Probably not, so I am not sure how the engagement model of porn is similar to YouTube.

Having said that, with OnlyFans and other such sites, the porn landscape is certainly evolving, and perhaps it is that landscape (than porn hub) that is more engaging because there's the human element, e.g., you can ask an only fans person to say your name whereas you cannot when watching videos.

[beebeepka]

Apparently everyone is exactly the same and the only people whose lives haven't been ruined buy these vices, as you call them, are the ones who haven't tried them. I am done here

[Spooky23]

Not sure why you have a hang up about this.

I enjoy drinking alcohol and have no issues with it, but that doesn’t mean acknowledging that alcoholism is a thing is a problem or some judgemental act.

[haswell]

The potential downsides associated alcohol consumption are well understood, and this understanding has permeated most societies.

The same cannot be said for porn consumption. While studies exist, this is not a well understood topic, and big claims are going to be met with skepticism and demands for evidence.

[r0b05]

I don't expect everyone to get it but if my insight helps a few people then it's worth sharing.

[haswell]

What insight, specifically? You make big claims with no citation, and when asked for more info, you dismiss those questions. If you’re interested in helping others understand the insights you claim to have, bring some details to the table!

I’m pretty curious about the topic, and this is an inquisitive community in general. Unfortunately, the way you’ve presented your position is not helpful, especially for a group that tends to demand scientific proof or at least a well formed hypothesis.

[r0b05]

Forget about the porn for a moment. Read it first as online habits programming the mind. When you visit certain websites, the content and algorithms tend to program the user's mind. You can see it with Facebook influencing politics and such. TikTok, etc.

Now bring in the porn websites and you will realise how it programs the user's mind in a similar way. Eg. After some time, some people will exhibit cuckold, submission/domination, incest behaviour in real life. Some will look at an older woman and not see a mother but a milf. Hope you get the point. I don't have any scientific proof but I used to be a porn user myself. You are welcome to research the subject further if you are interested.

Referring back to the parent comment, as the stimulation of vanilla porn becomes boring, the user will need to watch more and more hyper stimulating material. Not dissimilar from a drug user. Some lose the interest in regular real life sex altogether or need to incorporate their porn habits into it.

I don't mean to generalize so if you don't think it applies to you then move on, but if you are interested in self improvement then tread these waters carefully.

[syops]

I suspect that many of the people responding haven't read any research into the topic.

[gorgonian]

What kinks do you think are unhealthy? I’d wager that truly unhealthy kinks are uncommon.

[AussieWog93]

>I’d wager that truly unhealthy kinks are uncommon.

The algorithm on PornHub promotes incest videos so heavily that creators of regular porn have started putting words like "stepmom", "step-sister" and "step-daughter" in the title of their videos even when the actual content has nothing to do with that.

It's one of the reasons I stopped using the site and went over to Reddit.

[rkk3]

Not just the Algorithm. Each major company has a family-xxx studio for their content. They have significant production value & popular performers, which feeds the optimization cycle. God only know's what societal effect it has when you fetish step children like that at scale.

[dk775]

Beyond that there are categories that I believe normalize behaviors such as transgenders, where the reasons for their increased visibility in wider society cannot be uncoupled. So it muddies the waters whether the porn, is playing any role, and prevents critical questioning of root causes. which in this case “sissy hypno genre” within trans porn directly tells viewers they want to be a girl and get fucked over and over. This is a large portion of transgender porn genre that viewers will eventually rabbithole to w the algorithm.

Personally I’d be very skeptical of supporting my child transitioning if it was rooted in blatant porn brainwashing such as this.

[AussieWog93]

I would be beyond surprised if trans porn was a significant factor in peoples' decision to transition.

[syops]

Virtually all sex acts can be done in a healthy way provided both parties are truly into it. Porn has created expectations in men as to what women normally want and as a result a lot of women do sex acts that they don't truly like. Porn has distorted the view of what is 'normal' and the expectations of what a woman should consent to.

[reshie]

expectations is perhaps a personality problem and lack of honest communication. normal is subjective even if it is inherited from societal norms. communication and being able to talk freely is key.

[1123581321]

Humans have trouble communicating freely and honestly. They do better when they have fewer misleading assumptions to work through.

[haswell]

The parent comment asks for specifics, but you go back to generalizing porn in response.

> Porn has distorted the view of what is ‘normal’

Surely you mean some porn, but you have not clarified which types. What do you say to plain, “vanilla” porn that pushes no boundaries? As with so many things, this is not a black or white issue, and statements like your final sentence do nothing to advance a nuanced conversation about the subject.

[dqv]

It's kind of like how social media warps our perception of what people (should) look like. Or how many vacations we should be going on [0,1]. Porn can affect how long we think sex should last and the positions we think we should be in [2]. Yes, even vanilla porn. While I think the anti-porn movement started with a religious-purity undertone, the secular explanations for why porn isn't such a great idea are convincing [3].

I would also ask anyone engaging in this discussion to replace the word "porn" with "alcohol" and see if it makes sense. Examine if it is useful to respond "well not everyone gets addicted to alcohol" when discussing the problems with alcohol. At least with me, there is an implied understanding that it's possible to use porn without getting addicted (even if I am becoming more skeptical of this assumption).

[0]: https://www.travelpulse.com/news/features/how-the-decades-ri...

[1]: https://www.travelpulse.com/news/features/traveling-for-soci...

[2]: https://www.npr.org/2019/05/25/723192364/what-we-dont-talk-a... (Consider whether the violence argument is useful in this discussion. I personally don't believe violence activates as many neural pathways as arousing images and orgasm.)

[3]: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/research/

[syops]

It's easy to find research on the topic. The research supports my view.

[haswell]

So share the research that supports your view…

As the person making claims without evidence, the onus is on you at this point. You’re not going to change minds if you’re not willing to share where you’re coming from.

[r0b05]

There are a few, but what about sexualization of teenagers and children. Do you think it's uncommon?

You don't need to wager, just look at the amount of content available for a kink and you can establish demand.

[zemvpferreira]

I'm sorry if that's been your experience but this generalisation is a bit much.

I probably watch about as much porn as I do Netflix - around 30 minutes per day on average. I enjoy it, it's very relaxing and pleasureful. I'm in a committed long-term relationship of 3 years and have had the same habits through other 3 relationships of about the same length. They've all had a full sex life and I enjoy both separately. I'm sure many people have the same experience.

[throwaway247599]

I think there are a lot of people like you, just as there are a lot of alcohol drinkers who are not alcoholics, and a lot of people who can smoke one cigarette a day and not become chain smokers.

There are also a lot of people with a vastly different experience with internet porn. Since we’re sharing personal anecdotes, allow me to describe my experience. I’ve first encountered internet porn in my teenage years. A harmless habit eventually escalated to daily 1-2 hour sessions, with maybe a hundred tabs open searching for that “perfect” video or picture. I would download terabytes of torrented porn to find that one specific video. Looking at porn on my phone would be the first thing I did in the morning and the last thing I did before falling asleep at night. It has poisoned my intimate relationships and my views of women in general (when 90% of ones experience of the opposite sex is from online porn, it warps ones real world perceptions). The sessions would eventually start leaving me drained and depressed for a few days after, to the point where I had to time them around important events (like work presentations, etc.) so that I would feel up to the task. I strongly suspect it caused some dysfunction with the real thing, ranging from never quite being satisfied (I would be back looking at porn an hour after sex) to some psychological and physical issues like premature ejaculation and not being able to get aroused for days at a time.

Like many addicts, I tried quitting a few times. The first time was after a week long vacation where I didn’t have easy access to internet. I felt better and got interested in the topic (despite the above I never considered my porn usage “a problem” until then). Turns out there’s an evolving community of people sharing these issues. I abstained for maybe half a year after relapsing. Similarly how smokers who quit talk about being able to experience smell and taste in a new way, this was a revelation. What attracted me in women started to change. Things became more subtle and interesting. I also felt like I no longer needed to have sex all the time and it greatly improved the quality of my relationships. Most recently, I quit using https://easypeasymethod.org/ (a rewrite of the classic “Easy Way to Stop Smoking” but for porn) and I hope this time for good! If anyone recognizes themselves in this story please do yourself a favor and read through that website - if there’s a 1% chance of it working for you it’s worth it.

I think you can agree that my experience is not “normal” or “healthy”. I also believe a lot of people are in the same boat, as the availability of online porn is only becoming easier with time.

Knowing what I know now I wish I’ve never came across it back then and I’m dreading figuring out how to educate my children about this. The easily available, effectively infinite internet porn is the problem, not just porn in general. I don’t see getting hooked in the same way on magazines or dvds, as repetitiveness gets boring pretty quickly.

[syops]

There's been a bit of research into the destructive aspects of porn watching. Porn has normalized a number of sexual behaviors that were not common in the past. This is especially so for behaviors that are degrading to the woman.

What's interesting about your comment though is that you accuse OP of over generalization whilst using your singular anecdotal experience in what I think can best be described as a example of under generalization.

[pault]

To be fair, some people of all genders get their kicks from being sexually dominated. The issue is knowing where the other person’s limits are and having good communication. This becomes a problem when people find discussing their sexual preferences embarrassing, even with their partners. My sex life improved greatly when I started asking my partners if they have any fantasies and exploring them together. Sometimes porn can help people discover things that they otherwise would have been too shy to bring up. However, If you’re watching porn five times per day and find yourself less and less stimulated by IRL sex, you need a detox.

[JackFr]

It’s possible though as a society we’ve lost the idea of a disordered desire. If you’ve got an authentic desire to be sexually dominated or to humiliate and dominate others, we now say “That’s ok, that’s your authentic self. It’s cool as long as everything is consensual.”

But maybe it’s not OK. Maybe it’s behavior that if indulged keeps us from living and thriving and keeps us from being our best selves.

I’m not making a moral argument here — at least I don’t think I am. Just that it might not be healthy to indulge every desire we may have. And when desires are far outside the norm, it’s worth it to be circumspect about them.

[pault]

You definitely are making a moral argument, even if that isn't your intention. There is no meaningful way to define "outside the norm", so it becomes a synonym for "unnatural" and a proxy for individual prejudices. Homosexuality is statistically "outside the norm", and conservative heterosexuals use this logic to support gay conversion therapy and other bigotry. You can overindulge in any dopamine-producing activity, so the same can be said for sex, eating, drinking, smoking, etc. The particular type of sex you enjoy is as irrelevant as the brand of whiskey you prefer.

[syops]

Of course there are such people. I submit though that the number of women who consent to anal and like it is much less than the number who consent and don't like it. The same for various other sex acts. I believe the research supports my position.

[pault]

I didn't downvote you, but "I believe the research supports my position" is functionally equivalent to "that's my gut feeling". I'd be interested in seeing any research you've encountered that caused you to arrive at this conclusion.

[VortexDream]

My experience has been that women are often also into the degrading behaviors/activities. If there is consent, where is the problem?

[vorpalhex]

Using porn to fix loneliness is like using a screwdriver as a hammer. It's not the intent of the tool, nor can you be upset with the screwdriver for being a poor hammer. The issue lies with the maker, not the tool.

[oblio]

Many things are clearly harmful because they exploit weaknesses in the human psyche and the average person. There is a reason why obesity is high and rising, for example.

[vorpalhex]

You can take two views of humans.

One is that they are to be managed - their food choices kept narrow to safe ones, dangerous things removed from their environment, and only safe and allowable futures enabled. Give them little locked down tablets that don't view porn, keep their food limited to acceptable options, don't let them read dangerous books.

The other view is that humans are free agents, and to treat them as less than an agent is to fundamentally deny their identity as such. That means giving them information but letting them make "bad choices" or "the wrong choice".

Freedom means being able to make bad choices.

[mjmahone17]

There’s a road between those views: people are sometimes free agents, but often do not actively choose their own path. So while we should allow people to make their own choices when they’re actively choosing them, we can do a lot to make the default choice one that is relatively beneficial over the long term.

So things like requiring sugary drinks to carry a label that makes it obvious when a juice is as sugary as a soda. Or modifying sidewalks and parking to make walking or biking short distances more pleasurable than driving. Some of how you do this is by removing dangers from their environment, for instance by separating bike lanes from roads. And by allowing people to break from a habit cycle, for instance by establishing rules for gambling like enforcing periodic breaks in play to give people opportunities to reassess their actions.

[oblio]

> You can take two views of humans.

Nothing in life is black or white. Life has many shades of gray (more than 50).

> Freedom means being able to make bad choices.

Yet here we are, where you're fined for drunk driving or for not wearing a seat belt.

* * *

There are no penalties for making bad choices that only affect <<you>>. But almost every choice you make, good or bad, affects someone else.

For an example of a very personal and selfish choice that actually impacts <<others>>, if you don't wear a seat belt and die, your family will greatly mourn your loss, but they might also not be able to make it without your financial support and have to get help from social services or from others, which others have to pay for. You'll probably turn a small accident into a big accident, and if you're not the only person in the car, you'll traumatize those with you for life (again, maybe needing help which others will pay for!) plus you're probably going to total the car (which the owner will have to pay for).

Humans aren't trees falling in a forest, trees that no one can hear falling.

* * *

Simple rule of thumb: if a restriction has been agreed to by diverse societies across the world, across tens and hundreds of countries, maybe it's there for a good reason and you're statistically not smarter than billions of people. I hope you are, but I'm willing to bet you aren't.

Approach these things more humbly, please.

[tech2]

> There are no penalties for making bad choices that only affect <<you>>. But almost every choice you make, good or bad, affects someone else.

Sure there are, easiest one to reach for is the consumption (or even ownership) of various drugs.

Beyond that there's prostitution in many jurisdictions, and no doubt there are other "victimless" crimes still on the books (basically those formed around morality - and therefore moral harm - rather than an otherwise identifiable harm or loss).

The problem with reaching for the "almost every choice you make affects someone" trope is that it's very easy to use it to justify any moral panic you choose. Sodomy (and by that I mean non-procreative sexual activity) is an excellent example whose laws were still active in some states up to 2014* (and maybe still).

* https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/21/12-stat...

[oblio]

> Sure there are, easiest one to reach for is the consumption (or even ownership) of various drugs.

Drug consumption is far from victimless. Even light drugs such as marijuana have negative effects on your cognitive abilities. That has an impact on others (the archetypal example being parents distraught by their children becoming drug users).

Stuff such as heroin, cocaine, meth, definitely have serious side effects for others.

If anything, your argument backfires spectacularly, since in a world where this would be possible alcohol, tobacco and possibly coffee would also be banned, for their disastrous consequences (coffee isn't really disastrous, but it's not that good, either).

I remember reading somewhere that the mortality rate on others (i.e. someone drinks alcohol and someone else dies due to that) of alcohol, for example, is second only to heroin (maybe meth, too?). It beats out stuff like cocaine or marijuana, for example.

> Beyond that there's prostitution in many jurisdictions, and no doubt there are other "victimless" crimes still on the books (basically those formed around morality - and therefore moral harm - rather than an otherwise identifiable harm or loss).

Prostitution is not victimless. It's mostly a female occupation (male prostitutes are a very small minority) and a good chunk of female prostitutes are abused and practically forced into it. I mean, it could be victimless, but in practice coercion is so present that it's almost impossible to separate the two.

> The problem with reaching for the "almost every choice you make affects someone" trope is that it's very easy to use it to justify any moral panic you choose.

That's why I said that only stuff where there's general agreement, including both liberal and conservative countries should be considered. For example murder would fit, since there really isn't any jurisdiction where murder is not a serious crime.

> Sodomy (and by that I mean non-procreative sexual activity) is an excellent example whose laws were still active in some states up to 2014* (and maybe still).

I agree. For your example, I'm having a really hard time to come up with real life, scientific, documented, negative side effects of sodomy on others. So it's much easier to distinguish between moral panic/aesthetic (let's be honest here, it's mostly an aesthetic thing, many people are just disgusted by it).

[Jeff_Brown]

> [porn is] akin to drinking salt water to cure thirst.

That's an exceptionally beautiful analogy.

[RangerScience]

There's a professor somewhere trying to prove that you can extend how long your pure water lasts by also drinking sea water; or something like that. Having trouble finding it right now.

[astrange]

Hmm, but drinking water with electrolytes (including moderate salt) is more refreshing than filtered water.

[rkk3]

> porn for relationships and intimacy

Never heard of anyone giving up dating or intimate relationships for Porn. Is this a thing?

[robben1234]

Porn only "fixes" loneliness if you have the feeling unconditionally linked to sex, which in a way is quite sad.

[candu]

If you think pornography is somehow uniquely modern...well, you're ignoring a millennia-long history of erotic depictions there, on top of presenting absolutely no evidence to support your rather Puritanical claims.

[bopbeepboop]

I think it’s a mistake to blame porn, rather than realizing porn is a self-medication for people targeted by institutional and pervasive misandry.

I understand even after several generations of men being abused, people aren’t ready to admit man-hating is a real problem in modern US society. I would encourage people to view education statistics where men have trailed women for forty years — yet receive no institutional support, while female-focused programs are lauded by the press. Or sentencing statistics, where the gap between men and women for the same crime is three times the sentencing gap between whites and blacks — something most of us recognize as a problem.

It’s the same thought process that blames video games for men staying home rather than assessing why they might rationally choose to isolate in a fictional world instead of embrace broader society.

[akomtu]

Porn is the fastfood of relationships. The proper food is just out of reach for most of the people.

[rantwasp]

yeah porn is a pandemic, NOT.

here is a secret: we are hardwired to reproduce. you may think you have a choice but you are wired to fsck everything that has even a remote chance of resulting into you passing your genes forward.

porn is a way to release some of the tension that comes with this wiring. nothing more, nothing less.