[quickthrowman]

Alcohol is more dangerous than all other drugs, in my experience (been addicted to alcohol and heroin in the past, and have abused every common drug) and in my opinion.

The addiction rate for cocaine/heroin/meth may be higher, but the negative effects of those drugs mostly stem from the high cost (theft) and insane profit margins (murder). If a heroin addict could get their supply for $5/day (and have it be pure heroin w no fentanyl) then nearly all of the negatives would disappear.

[galaxyLogic]

Isn't meth just plain destructive, what it does to your body, and brain?

[nick__m]

It's somewhat more subtle, pure medical grade methamphetamine (desoxyn) taken orally is theoretically the best ADD medicine available but it's almost never prescribed for political reasons.

Meth has lot less sympathetic side effects than dextroamphetamine per unit of dopaminergic stimulation, this simple difference enables abuser to consume ridiculously large dose and those high doses are destructive.

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines

[nszceta]

Amphetamine-like drugs are used as pills or capsules, powder, or fluid, and can be ingested orally, smoked, insufflated, or injected intravenously. They cause euphoria but tolerance develops rapidly. Clinically evident effects of the two drugs are nearly indistinguishable, but methamphetamine appears to be a more potent stimulant. Amphetamine and methamphetamine induce euphoria, increased energy, alertness and libido, agitation and anxiety, increased locomotor activity and stereotypical movements, as well as hyperthermia, increased heart rate and blood pressure, vasoconstriction, bronchodilatation, hyperglycemia, and suppress appetite. Psychosis, hyperkinesia, seizures, and coma have been described in emergency patients. Chronic users may develop behavioral disorders, impulsivity, punding (non-goal directed repetitive activities), hallucinations, tremor, choreoathetosis, dystonias, ataxia, and gait disturbances (41–43). Stereotyped involuntary choreoathetotic hyperkinesias are characteristic in arms, neck and head, and usually disappear during sleep, while teeth grinding (bruxism) may occur during day and night. Movement disorders may develop during abuse or abstinence, and though they a usually resolve within few days, they may remain for a long time in some cases, even after the abuse of amphetamines is stopped. Treatment with benzodiazepines or neuroleptics may be of benefit (43–45). Choreiform movements have developed as an adverse effect in the therapeutic setting of amphetamine used in the treatment of ADHD in adult and pediatric patients (46, 47).

[41] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23688691/

[43] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3355623/

[45] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7299411/

[46] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22883290/

[47] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15254949/

[nick__m]

Yes, the dose makes the poison and yes medicl amphetamines are sometimes abused but the literature you cited¹ isn't really about the medical use of amphetamines. Those papers are about the abuse of amphetamines.

From my experience with Vyvanse I find that amphetamines have a dose response function with linear and exponential steps. 15mg is barely perceptible, 30mg is like a coffee without the anxiety but it last 8 hours. 45mg is like 30mg but a little longer. 60mg in 2 doses (first pill at 7am and next one at 9am) is a perfect treatment against my ADD. Once I tried 90mg and it was terrible, I experienced bruxism, anxiety and hyperacidity for 18 hours. I am sure that I would develop the problems you listed if I were to take 90mg a day but 90mg of Vyvanse is supratherapeutic...

1: Link 41 is about abuse (supratherapeutic and frequent doses). Link 43 I can't comment as I don't have acces but it's an old paper from 1988... Link 45 is about abuse again. Link 46 is about accidental ingestion by a baby. (a therapeutic dose for a teenager is clearly supratherapeutic in a 8months infant) Link 47 is probably about abuse (the abstract talk of reversible consequences of dose escalation) but I don't have acces to the paper.

[nszceta]

You can't avoid capillary vasoconstriction at any dose and that's what makes your teeth rot and gums go bad. Nothing you can do about that. I've used Adderall and Vyvanse many many years ago for "ADHD" as well. Bad breath and increased gum issues made me stop well before any damage occurred.

[fnord77]

I was prescribed desoxyn for adhd - didn't seem particularly hard to get...

[rkk3]

I remember seeing a study a few years ago that showed a lot of the negatives from Meth weren't inherent in the drug but from behaviors it encourages; like not sleeping.

[galaxyLogic]

I don't think I would say it "encourages" not sleeping. Rather it makes sleeping impossible. And that has bad effects. Drug causes something which causes something else, so you could say it is not the drug but its effects, but I would say that means it is the drug that causes it all. Don't take it if you don't want those "side-effects".