[ghoward]

> Watching the anti-COVID vaccine folks has helped me realize this isn't about medicine or science or understanding...its about selfishness.

It really is about science because the vaccines have not been approved for general use yet. All they have is an Emergency Use Authorization.

Edit: Also, we don't know the long-term effects of these vaccines. Those could be far worse than the virus.

For people who are not vulnerable, they shouldn't have to get a vaccine. For people who are, well, we have grocery delivery services. And masks (if they work). And vaccines (if they can get them).

If we lose liberty, then you can bet that we will lose our ability to choose whether to get experimental medical treatments or not. Trust me, you don't want to go down that road.

[SketchySeaBeast]

Do you have an example of said side effects your concerned about? As far as I'm aware most of the vaccine side effects should have popped up by now, and if you're talking long term then we can't possibly know the side effects of any medication because you can always move out the goalpost another decade.

The liberty being discussed here is to go to another country - that's never been an unrestrained freedom you had and up for that other nation to decide, so I don't know why you're concerned about a non-existent liberty.

[ghoward]

Long-term side effects don't pop up right away, so no, I can't say what side effects I am worried about. However, I think a decade is about the right amount of time to watch.

I am not talking about a non-existent liberty. I am talking about "my body, my choice." If we decide that taking an experimental vaccine should be necessary for free and unrestricted travel across borders, what's to stop governments from implementing the same thing domestically? Or requiring vaccines to take part in the economy? We already see moves that direction, so I am not talking about a non-existent liberty.

[SketchySeaBeast]

> Long-term side effects don't pop up right away, so no, I can't say what side effects I am worried about. However, I think a decade is about the right amount of time to watch.

So we can expect in 2031 you'll get vaccinated?

> If we decide that taking an experimental vaccine should be necessary for free and unrestricted travel across borders, what's to stop governments from implementing the same thing domestically?

Regarding restriction your movement, as GP states countries have had rules for vaccination during travel for a long time. You have no right to visit another country and countries are free to restrict your freedom of movement within their laws. That's not a liberty you possess, and you're making up scenarios to maximize your potential persecution. Unless that's seriously in discussion, which it's not, it's being dramatic for drama's sake.

[ghoward]

I am talking about domestic travel, not international.

During the hysteria, I believe either New York or Rhode Island restricted travel across those state borders, despite such restrictions being explicitly prohibited by the Constitution.

So I am not making up a scenario.

Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic. So no, I probably won't take the vaccine. But taking the vaccine at my age was not a good idea anyway (in my opinion).

[SketchySeaBeast]

Was anyone else talking about domestic travel?

> Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic. So no, I probably won't take the vaccine. But taking the vaccine at my age was not a good idea anyway (in my opinion).

I don't know what age you are, but you must not be talking statistically.

[ghoward]

> Was anyone else talking about domestic travel?

No, no one else was talking about domestic travel, but I was. Because it's important to me, and because I can see how it will be lost easily. And it is a liberty that I have.

Also, what about being shut out of the economy? No one was talking about that either, but it's already happening, and I also don't want to lose that.

> I don't know what age you are, but you must not be talking statistically.

I am at an age where I could have kids. There is very little evidence that the vaccines do not affect the ability to have kids. So no, I am not talking statistically, but if I was, 99.97% of the people who get COVID in my age group do just fine. So statistically, the virus isn't very dangerous to me, while the vaccines are unknown. I'll go with the devil I know, thank you very much.

Also, your questions show that you have no good faith interest in engaging in healthy debate and instead wish to make me look bad. So this will be my last message to you. You can have the last word if you want.

[tonfa]

I guess we're not worried about the long term effect of the virus either? Planning on avoiding getting infected for the next 10y so that we can learn more about it as well?

Especially ironic if it ends up that the virus was escaped from a lab.

[ghoward]

There is a chance that I will not get the virus at all.

[SketchySeaBeast]

To quote another thing you said:

> Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic.

[ghoward]

Still a chance that I won't get it. Endemic also means that it's constantly mutating, like the flu. I may never get the current strain of COVID-19.

[avs733]

'it really is about the science'

so what is your education level regarding interpreting vaccine trials data?

it really is about the liberty...which really is about the selfishness...I may disagree with your perspective but my bigger problem is that you won't own it.

[ghoward]

There is no data about long term effects, so my education doesn't matter.

Also, focusing on liberty is not selfish. It is a false dichotomy that liberty leads to less safety. In fact, loss of liberty means the loss of different kinds of safety than the virus takes away.

Right now, in the US, we have the safety that the government is not just going to haul us away to reeducation camps if we hold opinions that go against the official narrative. Lose liberty, and that safety is gone.

I focus on liberty because I don't want my posterity, or yours, or anyone's, living in a dystopian dictatorship where they fear for their lives every day.

If you call me selfish because of that, I'll accept that label because you just made it meaningless.

Oh, and I have a college education with statistics and a bit of experience in chemistry research.