[SketchySeaBeast]

Do you have an example of said side effects your concerned about? As far as I'm aware most of the vaccine side effects should have popped up by now, and if you're talking long term then we can't possibly know the side effects of any medication because you can always move out the goalpost another decade.

The liberty being discussed here is to go to another country - that's never been an unrestrained freedom you had and up for that other nation to decide, so I don't know why you're concerned about a non-existent liberty.

[ghoward]

Long-term side effects don't pop up right away, so no, I can't say what side effects I am worried about. However, I think a decade is about the right amount of time to watch.

I am not talking about a non-existent liberty. I am talking about "my body, my choice." If we decide that taking an experimental vaccine should be necessary for free and unrestricted travel across borders, what's to stop governments from implementing the same thing domestically? Or requiring vaccines to take part in the economy? We already see moves that direction, so I am not talking about a non-existent liberty.

[SketchySeaBeast]

> Long-term side effects don't pop up right away, so no, I can't say what side effects I am worried about. However, I think a decade is about the right amount of time to watch.

So we can expect in 2031 you'll get vaccinated?

> If we decide that taking an experimental vaccine should be necessary for free and unrestricted travel across borders, what's to stop governments from implementing the same thing domestically?

Regarding restriction your movement, as GP states countries have had rules for vaccination during travel for a long time. You have no right to visit another country and countries are free to restrict your freedom of movement within their laws. That's not a liberty you possess, and you're making up scenarios to maximize your potential persecution. Unless that's seriously in discussion, which it's not, it's being dramatic for drama's sake.

[ghoward]

I am talking about domestic travel, not international.

During the hysteria, I believe either New York or Rhode Island restricted travel across those state borders, despite such restrictions being explicitly prohibited by the Constitution.

So I am not making up a scenario.

Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic. So no, I probably won't take the vaccine. But taking the vaccine at my age was not a good idea anyway (in my opinion).

[SketchySeaBeast]

Was anyone else talking about domestic travel?

> Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic. So no, I probably won't take the vaccine. But taking the vaccine at my age was not a good idea anyway (in my opinion).

I don't know what age you are, but you must not be talking statistically.

[ghoward]

> Was anyone else talking about domestic travel?

No, no one else was talking about domestic travel, but I was. Because it's important to me, and because I can see how it will be lost easily. And it is a liberty that I have.

Also, what about being shut out of the economy? No one was talking about that either, but it's already happening, and I also don't want to lose that.

> I don't know what age you are, but you must not be talking statistically.

I am at an age where I could have kids. There is very little evidence that the vaccines do not affect the ability to have kids. So no, I am not talking statistically, but if I was, 99.97% of the people who get COVID in my age group do just fine. So statistically, the virus isn't very dangerous to me, while the vaccines are unknown. I'll go with the devil I know, thank you very much.

Also, your questions show that you have no good faith interest in engaging in healthy debate and instead wish to make me look bad. So this will be my last message to you. You can have the last word if you want.

[SketchySeaBeast]

> There is very little evidence that the vaccines do not affect the ability to have kids.

That's fine, my last word is simple - you're not assuming the null hypothesis with this. You're creating a list of bad things, for which you have no evidence, and assuming they could be true. In that case it could also very well be the case that somehow it causes benefits in fertility or some other effects. And it seems foolish to worry about the unobserved effects of the vaccine, especially given the huge sample size we currently have, and especially when there is currently research being done, based upon actual observations and not just unfounded conjecture, that COVID may be able to affect fertility.

[tonfa]

I guess we're not worried about the long term effect of the virus either? Planning on avoiding getting infected for the next 10y so that we can learn more about it as well?

Especially ironic if it ends up that the virus was escaped from a lab.

[ghoward]

There is a chance that I will not get the virus at all.

[SketchySeaBeast]

To quote another thing you said:

> Also, by 2031 (if not already), COVID will be endemic.

[ghoward]

Still a chance that I won't get it. Endemic also means that it's constantly mutating, like the flu. I may never get the current strain of COVID-19.

[SketchySeaBeast]

Yeah, but the next strain could be even worse. You seem comfortable playing the odds if you can be passive while doing it instead of making the active choice of getting a vaccination, even if the odds of the worse thing happening is many orders of magnitude greater.