[throwaway45209]

At a lunch for female journalists and scientists, Hunt gave a speech...

"It's strange that such a chauvinist monster like me has been asked to speak to women scientists. Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry. Perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls? Now, seriously, I'm impressed by the economic development of Korea. And women scientists played, without a doubt, an important role in it. Science needs women, and you should do science, despite all the obstacles, and despite monsters like me."

That is not a joke.

[newswasboring]

People keep bringing out that this can be a joke, but he said this two days later

"I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that I have fallen in love with people in the lab, and that people in the lab have fallen in love with me, and it's very disruptive to the science. It's terribly important that, in the lab, people are on a level playing field. And I found these emotional entanglements made life very difficult. I mean, I'm really, really sorry that I caused any offence – that's awful. I certainly didn't mean – I just meant to be honest, actually." [1]

He was given a chance to clarify, he doubled down. While I'm not saying a joke should cause people to be fired, but this is clearly more than a joke.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33077107

[Al-Khwarizmi]

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired?

Sorry, honest question. Being from a different culture, I honestly fail to get this kind of outrage. For me it's just a description of humans being human...

[b3morales]

It's painfully reductive and one-dimensional. What about envy and hate, hero worship, and other emotional attachments? Those have no effect on working environment?

What about men and women who aren't romantically attracted to (respectively) women and men? Are gay men relegated to the women's lab? But only one per batch, lest they fall in love with each other? (And bisexual people can only be trusted to do science on their own.)

In general don't we expect "professionalism" to include a level of managing your emotions? And this person is basically saying "I can't deal, therefore certain other people must be kept away so I don't get distracted". As well as tarring women in general as not being able to deal, which is unfair. I sure wouldn't want to work with this guy after hearing him say that.

[missedthecue]

Feelings of love are notoriously hard to "manage". This is the plot line of most Rom-Coms for instance.

[b3morales]

Romantic comedies are fiction, though, intentionally exaggerated for entertainment. I don't deny there's a kernel of truth to that kind of story -- or else they wouldn't be interesting at all -- but I hope we're not taking them as a model of workplace behavior.

[missedthecue]

Right but my point is that love is something you fall into, not a conscious choice (as opposed to making inappropriate comments or non-consensually touching a colleague where you shouldnt. These are things professionals are reasonably expected to manage in the workplace)

[h2odragon]

> a description of humans being human...

Precisely. There's some sort of "if you have authority you must be better than me" feeling and "better than me" admits no flaws or human variety at all, apparently. Some folks want perfect Gods to follow and keep failing to make them from people made of meat.

[frickinLasers]

It is difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings between two people, from the case of a superior using their position to get their genitals wet and a subordinate capitulating for fear of losing their job.

Since feelings are only a biological impulse, and we humans frequently suppress our impulses in the form of self control, it's much easier to look for that oxytocin fix in a more appropriate arena.

The military has been doing this for ages, forbidding officers from fraternizing with enlisted. And plenty of civilians abusing positions of power have proven the wisdom of such a policy.

[Veen]

It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere. It's a constant of human experience and has very little to do with power dynamics.

[whatshisface]

>It's difficult to distinguish genuine romantic feelings from exploitative lust everywhere.

Huh?

[zozbot234]

The controversial part is where he suggests that this is a "problem" and might be a good reason to exclude women from working in the lab alongside with males. That looks like he's starting out with a very sexist attitude and trying to justify it with flimsy excuses.

[anewhnaccount2]

That part was the joke. He's saying it's a real problem, but that's clearly the wrong solution. For him, it's obviously a bad solution, and so worthy of ridicule.

[wrs]

By framing that as “exclusion” are you assuming the women-only labs would be worse places to work than the men-only labs?

[b3morales]

As a policy it denies both women and men the opportunity of working together. If you are a man and a woman happens to be working on the same problem that you are investigating, would you like to be excluded from learning from her? And vice versa.

[wrs]

Exactly. So his proposal is not a practical solution to the problem of human behavior affecting productivity, but it’s not “sexist”. Many single-sex schools exist and have strong proponents, but are rarely described as “excluding” people.

[newswasboring]

> and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired?

Hard to not assume malice when you accuse someone for implying something they explicitly said they don't want to imply.

[timoth3y]

> So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired?

Fundamentally, he is saying that since he has trouble keeping his emotions in check around women, the solution is to not allow women in the lab rather than developing his own managerial or social skills.

It's understandable why some would question the wisdom of having this person responsible for developing the skills of female scientists.

Should he have been fired? I don't know. Certainly not if tis joke was is only "offence", but I suspect there is a bit more history to the situation.

[pasabagi]

I guess for me the thing that's really crappy about this quote is that it shows his underlying attitude - that women are basically always potential romantic partners.

If he was into men, and he said he didn't want men in the lab because he might fall in love with them, you can sort of see how absurd it is, and how unpleasant it is to be the object of romantic fantasy when you're just trying to get on with your job.

[rscho]

> women are basically always potential romantic partners

Ok, why would that not be the case? Laws? PC? Age difference? Love/biology doesn't care about social rules, and this has been shown time and again in every possible situation you could think of.

> you can sort of see how absurd it is

Huh, no I can't. What makes it different when you reverse the situation?

[pasabagi]

> Huh, no I can't.

The point is, any human can be a romantic partner to any other. Therefore, his argument should be that no pair of humans should work together ever for risk of romantic entanglements.

Except it doesn't work that way, because we're all really used to the idea that in the workplace, you treat your colleagues as colleagues, not as fantasy-future-partners.

This isn't PC. It's just basic common sense, that he's lost his grip on, because he sees women first as romantic partners or sex objects or whatever, and second as scientists.

[bumby]

>Ok, why would that not be the case?

Because of professionalism. The root of term used for “professions” like law, medicine, engineering etc. is that one professes to a code of ethics. That code should overrule base desires.

We generally wouldn’t accept a doctor who views and treats patients primarily as an income stream despite greed being a near-universal human drive and we shouldn’t expect a professor to view subordinates as potential romantic partners. Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it.

[rscho]

> Acknowledging the drive exists isn’t a reason to condone it.

So, exactly what Hunt said in his speech.

[toss1]

“Human nature, is what we are put on earth to overcome.”

--Katherine Hepburn, in The African Queen

A few of the good words to live by

[iamadog3]

Not really, no. Human nature is what we're dealt, we must embrace both the positive and negative aspects of it. Perhaps the inevitability of two people gravitating towards one another can be leveraged? Perhaps the disparities can elucidate us on unseen proclivities in different populations, things that can also be leveraged and positively.

What we should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine. No longer can they be compelling or compelled but only impelled as would be a gear turning in the insurmountable forces of the engine that drives.

[toss1]

>>things that can also be leveraged and positively.

And, exactly how is this NOT overcoming human nature?

>> should avoid is cramming people into functionary roles and instruct them they must act as would a machine

What in that quote, or its context, ever suggested cramming people into functionary or mechanical roles?

[curtainsforus]

Should you try to overcome your survival instinct?

[toss1]

Often, yes (though usually not to the point of actually dying). Overcoming survival fears is behind every act of physical courage, e.g., saving a friend or stranger, or exploring any new zone that will normally kill you (mountaineering, undersea, space, etc.).

You have got to suppress your naive survival instinct (or remain massively ignorant) to climb on top of a rocket with thousands of tons of explosive material...

[skystarman]

FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry...

He made a terribly misogynistic "joke" and paid the consequences for it.

You'd think someone with a Nobel prize wouldn't be so clueless

[prepend]

> FUnny you leave out the part where he also said if you criticize a woman in the lab they cry...

Do you think women in the lab, when criticized, are more likely, less likely, or equally likely to cry?

Is the scientist’s comment mean spirited, or sexist, or just an observation?

I think it’s important to consider what the intent behind these jokes are. The Wikipedia article calls out statements from 29 other scientists that note how women (and men) were advanced within his lab and outside his lab.

So if this person thinks that the women he’s worked with cry when criticized, so we not want him to say that? It seems more like the goal should be to not stigmatize crying as that seems pretty reasonable for all genders, rather than to stigmatize talking about crying.

[whatshisface]

The rule is really simple: it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in. Period. All groups (even groups people feel proud to be a part of), and all generalizations, even ones that sound positive or don't apply to the listener. I'm not going to list examples but if you're having a hard time thinking of them just imagine overhearing a conversation at a coffee shop about "those <something you are>, they're always <something you do or don't do>."

[zozbot234]

> it makes people uncomfortable when you make generalizations about natural traits shared by the group they're in.

It does not make everyone uncomfortable, obviously. I thought we were not supposed to resort to stereotypes.

[skystarman]

"WHen making terribly misogynistic comments his INTENT wasn't to be misogynistic, it's just based on his experience that women are driven primarily by their emotions and unable to handle pressure!"

Really solid defense!

[prepend]

I’m not defending him and it’s funny you think this is some pro/con situation.

That being said misogyny requires intent, right. It means someone who hates or dislikes women. So if you make a statement that every time you criticize a woman, she cries and don’t have ill intent toward women, then that isn’t a sign of misogyny.

I don’t think women are any more likely to cry than men, but if there’s research that shows it so, is that misogynistic?

If you say “women are shorter than men” is that misogynistic?

I think it largely depends on intent as if someone is trying to demean women or does hate women, that’s a big difference. Saying women are shorter than men as part of some overall argument on inferiority is clearly misogynistic.

[zepto]

‘Doubled down’ on what?

I’m curious if you think any of his statements are untrue?

[newswasboring]

The one about woman crying when they are criticized? That one is certainly untrue. While some people cry when they are criticized (I personally am severely effected and have cried in the past but afterwards), women have no extra tendency to do this.

[zepto]

> The one about woman crying when they are criticized? That one is certainly untrue.

What makes you so certain?

> women have no extra tendency to do this.

The data say otherwise:

https://www.thecut.com/2015/01/why-do-women-cry-more-than-me...

[afarrell]

Honestly, the people who jump to conclusions about him saying this need to read some Berné Brown.

[AussieWog93]

That quote is a textbook example of self-deprecating British humour.

[throwaway45209]

It's actually self-congratulating, while deprecating others.

[hnuser123456]

I can't see it that way. He is open about his own weaknesses as well. We don't have to look up to him for saying this, but that doesn't make it your typical one-sided bashing.

[helloworld11]

One ambiguously offensive comment during a speech by an aging professor isn't something I'd particularly detest. Outraged cancel culture social media mobs screaming for someone's head at the slightest supposed provocation, on the other hand are thoroughly detestable.

The balance of the problem here isn't this professor, who otherwise spent a large part of his own career helping many women (many of who defended him after his speech) with their own scientific careers. Instead the much more insidious problem is a hysterical social tendency of people with influence in their support for an increasingly dominant social norm then mobbing together under said social banners to destroy entire careers and lives at even minuscule transgressions of their ideas of correct thinking.

The point of these attacks often isn't even about genuine justice for marginalized people. Instead it's about establishing dominance while virtue signalling as aggressively and righteously as possible.

[teddyh]

I’ve noticed a pattern where, wherever someone feels the need to write (after a disparaging story about someone else) “They were not joking” or “They really said this”, it’s almost always false, and the disparaged person really was joking, or really did not say that, or it was taken wildly out of context, etc.

[alisonkisk]

What's the missing context here? That he used an important public speaking opportunity to actually mock the women he was assigned to help, and we misunderstood it as a serious appeal? That he was being fake offensive because it would be funny or enlightening? This wasn't an opportunistic pun. Humor is rooted in one's worldview.

[Veen]

> What's the missing context here?

The missing context is that many women he worked with defended him. That he has consistently worked with, hired, supported, and promoted women throughout his career. That he has done far more to benefit women in science and humanity generally than the whining Twitterati who denounced him ever will.

[emn13]

It sometimes surprises me how people don't seem to see that while all of this is part of a healthy (and seemingly normal) societal change, that it's unfortunate that not just are oldfashioned behaviors shunned, but that merely talking about struggles with them is so taboo. Is society really going to adapt better because people lash out so uncompromisingly?

[NovemberWhiskey]

I don't know any of the context here, but it seems to me that what the quote actually says is that the author admits that he is unable to function effectively with female colleagues, that there are other men like him, and that it's a problem that mustn't be allowed to hold women back from doing science.

[teddyh]

I don’t know anything about this specific case. It might be the exception which proves the rule.

In general, I try to follow the HN guideline: “Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.”

[hnuser123456]

He also implies that if you're too good of a student, at least around him, he might fall in love with you and become a worse teacher, and he's just being honest about it. You could mock men for being bad at suppressing feelings equally from the same comment.

[dwighttk]

"Now, seriously..." it isn't a very good joke, but what makes you think that isn't a joke?