[dang]

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

Dismissing what you don't understand because it is unfamiliar is the essence of a shallow dismissal, no? And you did it twice in this thread. The first was a blessing in disguise because of geocar's excellent reply, but now you're just repeating it, with added name-calling. Please don't do that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[jiggawatts]

It's the essence of the thing in this case, and isn't a shallow criticism.

Syntax can be good or bad. I don't believe that it's just a matter of "getting used to it", there are objective metrics of readability, developer error rates, and speed of training that some languages do poorly at.

My point was that most array languages look like line noise. That's flippant, but true.

Ask yourself this question: Is it possible to develop an array-based language and use more "normal" syntax?

Of course it is! That was a rhetorical question.

Similarly, there are other branches of science or mathematics that through an accident of history have developed impenetrable syntax.

This is not dismissing something I don't understand. I understand several such branches of mathematics and still think the syntax is unnecessarily obtuse. Coughcategory theorycough.

PS: Geocar wrote about two pages to explain what is a trivial piece of code, and I still have no idea what it even does or how! I can write code in 10 languages and read about 20-30 without too much difficulty. This includes obscure languages like Mathematica, Haskell, and several flavours of assembly language.

Array based languages are the first time I've seen a high-level language that is less readable than the machine code that they are supposed to be abstracting away! It's also the second time that I've failed to understand a simple piece of code even with a detailed explanation. For reference, the only other case is quantum algorithms.

Okay, I tell a lie. Thinking back on it, I've also seen Perl scripts that are unreadable line noise, but that's about it...

[geocar]

> It's the essence of the thing in this case, and isn't a shallow criticism.

Listen: I don't think you're qualified to speak to the essence of a thing that you don't understand, and I think you know that. I am telling you this is not very difficult and it is very useful, and I think you're angry at yourself for not "getting it". You are so smart you know ten programming languages, so you assume there's something wrong with "it" because to think there's something wrong with you is unthinkable.

Relax. There's nothing wrong with you either. You can learn this, but you aren't going to be able to skim it; the knowledge you have gained learning ten other languages is not going to help you very much. What is going on is stranger than you can realise at this point, so many array-people believe it is easiest if you try to forget everything you know about programming when you try to learn an array language. I don't think I agree with that, but the myth that children learn languages faster than adults is pervasive. Maybe that helps.

> Geocar wrote about two pages to explain what is a trivial piece of code, and I still have no idea what it even does or how!

Try reading it again! It is not complicated (nor optimal) but you are likely skimming or skipping important parts. If you can tell me where I lost you, I can probably help you find your way.

You might find it easier to follow along with a k reference guide. These typically fit on a note-card and can be helpful in memorising the k operators. These are all of the operators in the above program:

    $[a;b;c] cond (if a then b else c)
    @[a;i;f] amend i indices in a with operation f

    &x where (are the 1-bits in x)
    #x count (the length of x)
    *x first (element of X)

    x&y min/and
    x~y atom-equivalent (like lisp's equalp)

    f':x call f with each pair of x

A complete reference card isn't much longer and usually ships with the k interpreter. People learn in different ways, and that's ok! Help me help you learn and you will probably learn this very quickly.

> Is it possible to develop an array-based language and use more "normal" syntax?

"Array-based" isn't exactly the same thing as an "array" language - I think people get too hung up on the power of vector-operators (which are indeed powerful!) and miss the fact that there are so few operators which to learn.

I don't expect you to understand exactly what I mean by that, but I hope that if you take the plunge to learn this properly, you'll remember that I said this and when it does make sense, it will be useful.

> Array based languages are the first time I've seen a high-level language that is less readable than the machine code that they are supposed to be abstracting away!

You can't read Arabic either, can you? Why do you think this is different?

Try to stop thinking in terms of "readable": You can only say something is "readable" to you, or perhaps if you are a hiring manager, "to most people". I can read it perfectly fine. Worrying about how "readable" a programming language at this point speaks only to how easy it is for you to acquire the ability to learn it, not how valuable it will be when you actually learn it.

[thrwaeasddsaf]

> I don't believe that it's just a matter of "getting used to it", there are objective metrics of readability, developer error rates, and speed of training that some languages do poorly at.

If we had such objective metrics on APL or K, that would be an interesting discussion. But what I've seen here is just opinion and anecdote.

I also think that "looks like line noise" is a fair characterization of how J and K look on the surface, but that does not mean they are unreadable.

I'm hardly qualified to give any deep insight, but after reading the first half of Aaron Hsu's thesis and playing around with a Dyalog APL interpreter online for a few days, APL starts to look quite readable to me (much more so than J, thanks to the additional symbols) and I found it rather easy to learn (unlike mathematics, but for me the struggle there is not at all in syntax but in the concepts, methods, and meaning).

[rscho]

Geocar put in the effort of trying to make you see. But you are prejudiced with the equivalent of those who spite Lisp because of parentheses.

If you want a "more readable" array language, take a look at Nial.

PS: qualifying the Wolfram language (Mathematica) as obscure is a really, really myopic view of the programming world.

[jiggawatts]

I've never seen anyone use Mathematica outside of academia other than myself. It also occupies a slightly unique corner of the language design landscape. One that I like!

I wish that Mathematica was modernised and made into a proper, compiled (or at least JIT-ed), heavyweight language with all the trimmings. A proper IDE, debugger, tracing tools, etc... The current version is a bit like Visual Basic -- a very old language that had grown past its original design capabilities and now needs a revamp. A bit like how VB.NET replaced VB, and was superseded in practice by C# on dotnet core.