[devney]

For years I've been asking: Why does my toothbrush have to connect to bluetooth? Why does my refrigerator twitter? These were always useless mis-features and we can hope some of them can get pared down now with the shortage. Bring back old style dumb appliances!

[perardi]

There are still lots, and lots, and lots of dumb appliances.

I think you’d have to go out of the way to buy a toothbrush with Bluetooth, and I see many a non-smart fridge in the best sellers at Home Depot. (https://www.homedepot.com/b/Appliances-Refrigerators-Side-by...)

For all the hooplah about smart homes and Alexa and Thread and Merlin Mann screaming about HomeKit and blah blah blah…most people have dumb lightbulbs, dumb garage doors, and dumb fridges.

The obvious exception is a smart TV, which are effectively mandatory now. And…after years of being a contrarian…guess what? I like my Roku-enabled TV. The apps are nice. I don’t have to have an external box. It’s fine. More than fine, even—I am kinda shocked at how good this Amazon-special TCL TV is.

[anonymousab]

> For all the hooplah about smart homes and Alexa and Thread and blah blah blah…most people have dumb lightbulbs, dumb garage doors, and dumb fridges.

For now. The profits to be made on microtransactions and subscriptions from internet-requiring features are too gargantuan to pass up, to not become the new norm. And, of course, unblockable ads and tracking.

A fun recent example is a motorcycle emergency vest that stops inflating when you stop paying the subscription. An outlier for now, but the average tomorrow; The slope is real and it's coated with vaseline.

[AnimalMuppet]

No, they'll only become the new norm if the majority of people buy them. And they cost more, because internet-enabled components aren't free. And most people really don't see the value in an internet-connected light bulb. Does it emit more light? No? Then why would I pay more for it? So if they have to sell the higher-cost BOM for the same price (because people see no reason to pay more), then where are the gargantuan profits?

So I really don't see internet-connected X taking over the market, no matter how much money companies could make if customers cooperated.

[perardi]

Or BMW’s attempt to sell subscriptions to CarPlay and heated seats.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...

But still…that’s high-margin subscriptions on top of a high-margin product. I am, currently, skeptical we will end up with low-end Internet of Shit for everything, because running that subscription service requires a big up-front investment that’s hard when you’re selling, I don’t know, toaster ovens.

[nitrogen]

There was recently a subscription dishwasher featured here. It turned out to be easy for the author to hack theirs, but it will get harder over time, just like ink cartridges.

[robocat]

“This Motorcycle Airbag Vest Will Stop Working If You Miss a Payment”

https://www.vice.com/en/article/93yyyd/this-motorcycle-airba...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27054629

[postpawl]

If I go to “shop all” in the refrigerators section of Home Depot’s site and look at the count next to the filter for “smart” features - Only 97 out of 798 refrigerators they sell have smart features.

[dralley]

That was, at one time, true for "smart TVs" as well.

[rsj_hn]

TVs are different as there is a large number of people who realize they don't need TVs anymore, they need gaming/computer monitors and can stream all the content they need. This increased substitutability with cheap, dumb monitors -- you no longer need a TV to watch TV -- means the pricing power of TV makers has fallen -- TV prices have plunged dramatically -- and they are desperately trying to find new business models and new value propositions, one of these is to subsidize the physical product and start monetizing attention.

I don't think washing machine makers have this option, nor is the internet a threat to replace washing machines. Of course business majors keep graduating and they will get bright ideas like selling information about what you wash to third parties, and they will have dreams of subscription revenue, but until they can provide a compelling value proposition, these are not going to get widely adopted. TVs are declining in price at 20% a year. Users are getting great value in exchange for putting up with the ads.

[postpawl]

The first smart refrigerator came out in 2000. The first smart tv came out later in 2007-2008. I think smart appliances just aren’t as popular as their dumb appliance counterparts. But yeah, maybe someday they will be.

[frenchy]

Yeah, though I would argue that smart kitchen appliances have a lot more going against them than smart tvs.

- Historically, the TV has been used for playing media transmitted on radio waves, so an internet connected TV isn't a big surprise.

- Television media formats seem to completely shift every decade or 2, so people are very used to buying something they'll throw away soon.

- People usually take their televisions around with them when they move houses, but not appliances. Transfering "smart" things between owners is generally a pain and a security hazard.

[dopidopHN]

Not in the US, but back home I clearly remember moving countless fridges of friends to new apartment.

But true that appliance seems to be attach to the houses here. And correct, smart things are private things because of the nature of their work.

I have a fridge that my grand father used. And I’m not specially young. I love that fridge, simple and frugal in energy.

I suspect the smart fridge and the like will come with incentive from large comglomerate that also sell food.

The « two day delivery » of the smart fridge. I guess a coupon.

Oh well.

[mason55]

Not sure exactly how old that fridge is but I think it’s unlikely that it’s anywhere close to as energy efficient as an equivalent fridge made today would be.

Appliances have made huge strides in energy efficiency in the last 30 years.

[im3w1l]

Many people I know are asking for and seeking out smart tvs. It's not being pushed on them. I don't hear those people asking for smart fridges (but occasionally I hear them talk about integrated ice makers).

[perardi]

TVs are Netflix terminals.

Why not get a TV with Netflix built in? At this point, it just makes sense to have apps on the TV.

[dukeyukey]

For me it's like separation of concerns. Give me a TV with good picture/sound and a good selection of ports. If I want a smart TV I'll stick a Chromecast/Fire stick in it; if I want a metrics displayer I'll use a Raspberry Pi; or maybe I'll use it with a games console. I'd prefer not to pay for smart features If I'm not gonna use them.

[isbvhodnvemrwvn]

When the software is no longer supported you have an expensive security vulnerability hanging on your wall.

[baq]

this is true for all appliances with any sort of networking. an appletv, roku, chromecast or fire stick have the exact same concern.

[smt88]

Chips in cars are decades old and are useful for things like managing fuel injection, increasing fuel efficiency.

"Dumb" cars have chips too.

[drzaiusapelord]

and for all we know, if cars were still made with carbs and solenoids and old fashion-y tech, that manufacturing might be impacted by a pandemic as well. I don't think there's anything fundamental about chips that are causing this delay. A lot of it has to with cancelling orders and manufacturers winding down and then restarting a major supply chain takes time, especially if demand shuts down fast and then starts up again faster than expected.

[BlueTemplar]

There's a wide space between connected and dumb appliances. For instance my espresso coffeemaker is fairly dumb : I'm not even sure that it has a chip that turns the light green when the resistor is hot enough, it might be just some "dumb" sensor. (Still, because of this, it's not completely dumb.)

In comparison, my electric kettle is much smarter, and most likely requires a chip to make all the logic around the various buttons and the screen and the water temperature settings work. Still, it has zero connectivity.

[throwaway29303]

I agree.

  Why does my toothbrush have to connect to bluetooth?

  Why does my refrigerator twitter?

Analytics etc; to get "relevant" ads. That's all this IoT and data syphoning etc is mostly about.

How often do you brush your teeth? What toothpaste do you use? Maybe your dentist needs to know that or, at least, someone from some (big) (tech) company doing data science about it for whatever reason (mostly to show you ads).

Knowledge is power.

[AnimalMuppet]

Sure. That's what's in it for some "them" out there somewhere. What's in it for me, the consumer who just wants to brush my teeth?

(Crickets.)

So don't hold your breath for this stuff to take off. Most people won't spend more money to buy something that will benefit someone else.

[CRConrad]

That's why they build it into everything, so you won't have a choice but to buy it.

[AnimalMuppet]

Dollars. Somebody's going to follow the dollars. If it costs less to build a toothbrush without bluetooth (and it absolutely does), and if the most of public doesn't care enough about bluetooth to pay more for a toothbrush, then the one who makes bluetooth-less toothbrushes will make more money. Somebody will do that.

[rsj_hn]

I have never owned a toothbrush that connects to bluetooth. Spend less if you find that spending more comes with features you don't want.

[octorian]

In this day and age its easy to forget that even "dumb" appliances still use microcontrollers. Yes, even functions like monitoring temperature, turning a compressor on and off, and beeping if the door is left open for too long... are probably more easily and cheaply done with a low-end microcontroller than some sort of electromechanical contraption.

[nnamtr]

I'm always very sceptical when electronics and chips are used as a solution to problems that nobody had. Reliability seems to suffer most of all. When I hear from my parents how long their products lasted back then ...

[bluedino]

Appicances with cheap membrane control panels are the worst. Mechanical dials lasted forever and when they broke you could at least still work them with some vise grips

[ta988]

One can also do the choice to not buy any of these. I have no trouble finding non IoT toothbrushes, fridges and so on.

[f6v]

Finding a dumb TV is a lot harder.

[markus_zhang]

One does not need to watch TV. I haven't watched any TV program for more than 20 years. I might purchase a radio in the near future though.

[mhh__]

Connected devices are a good thing - i.e. I should be able to make the washing machine scriptable from my computer, but I bet these solutions are always crap because they are implemented in a hurry by engineers who don't understand either the hardware or software well enough to make it work, so you end up with quasi-useless boss-pleasers like we have now.

[slver]

The world isn't driven by "I should have all the nice things I can imagine". How are you gonna script the washing machine to take the underwear off your bottom and put it in the drum? You'll have to do that yourself. And when you do it, you might as well "script the washing machine" by pushing the buttons on it.

I'm a programmer and honestly I can't wait for this IoT fad to die down a little. Sure, maybe it's cool to have LAN connected lightbulbs as a novelty product. But this kind of shit will never ever be the norm, simply because it makes no damn sense in terms of value proposition.

[katbyte]

I couldn’t imagine not having smart lights, they are one of the few iot devices that make my life a lot more comfortable- def not a novelty

[dieortin]

What do you use them for that is really helpful? I’m considering getting some Hue lightbulbs, but it seems like a bit of a waste.

[charrondev]

I’ve got hués through the whole house. Primary use cases are:

- Being able to trigger dimming of the lights in the house as sunset approaches. - Being able close all the lights in the house in one go (such as when leaving). - dimming lights when I don’t have dimmers wired in. - being able to adjust colour temperature of the lights (and full colours, I tend to use a mix of oranges, pinks, and purples). - turning off lamps that are not otherwise on the same circuit as the ceiling when I flick a switch.

Things like dimming and controlling lights on the same circuit could be done with electrical work, but I’m renting. The bulbs come with me wherever I move. The electrical work doesn’t. I already was bringing my own lightbulbs wherever I moved anyways (to save electricity).

[katbyte]

Lights turn on and off automatically, I rarely have to do anything and they are how I want them when I want them / and don’t turn on when I’m Not at home and turn on when I arrive home. Turning on in the morning during winter helps a ton and when I do need a light on/off on demand it’s a voice command or the tap of a wireless battery less switch

[mhh__]

YMMV but having the light turn on when my alarm goes off genuinely wakes me up.

[the__alchemist]

Color temp and dimming-without-buzz. And you can put the switch etc wherever you want, and change color temp and brightness automatically before bed.

[mhh__]

What? I want to make the washing machine starting drying after a specific amount of time after the wash stage has finished.

And guess what mr programmer, they didn't bother letting me do that with the front panel...

[slver]

Most (all?) washing machines have a delayed start.

Why would you want your clothes to sit wet, collecting mold, before the drying begins?

See, part of being a good programmer is figuring out a solution using the tools you have. Which includes figuring out how existing machines address your issues without requesting they come with a fully programmable API and wi-fi, just so you can delay the drying cycle.

[mhh__]

I get the best drying if the machine washes, drains for a bit, then starts drying after that.

If I were to do this it would take 4 trips to the washing machine because they didn't think to make it tick over from even washing to drying.

[slver]

What we've learned here is you need to buy a new washing machine, or maybe before that, read carefully the manual of the one you have.

Thinking you can dry your clothes better than the people who engineered the entire machine and wrote its programs is honestly cracking me up. Do you think the vendors were like "you know what, we don't need this washing machine to dry well".

Even more, what kind of a marketing campaign would such a scriptable machine even have?

"Our washing machine dries really poorly, but we hope every stay at home mom can script it to dry better, so we included a web server and a REST API with it".

They'll go bankrupt, man.

[lfowles]

Does it not have a spin cycle? After that runs on mine there's nothing left to drain.

Edit: oh no apparently it's a questionably maintained communal laundry room unit, I'm so sorry

[kiddico]

Connected washing machines continue to make little sense to me. The only benefit I can think of is a notification when it's done. Otherwise all the interactions with it are done in person. (loading/unloading etc)

What would you want to script?

[PeterisP]

The common use case is to want to set the time so that it runs not right now but later - either because for noise reasons, or so that it finishes when you're back home to unload.

Also, of course, there's the "internal scheduling" of various different activities that the machine is doing; you can do that mechanically but IMHO it's simpler now to do that with a cheap microcontroller.

[isbvhodnvemrwvn]

All washing machines I bought in the last decade had delayed start mechanism.

[mhh__]

My washing machine doesn't automatically starting draining or drying after finishing, so I have to go up and down the stairs, and it has a mind of its own as to when it finishes.

An ESP-32 is about 2 quid last time I checked, I have many, and I would happily attach it to the machine if not for the fact that it doesn't belong to me.

[ClumsyPilot]

I have a washing machine from year 2000, and it has that functionality built in. Are you sure you read the manual?

[mhh__]

I don't think so. I can't work out how the washing machine isn't obviously just an example.

Also, the thing that's more annoying is actually that the machine's alarm is extremely quiet and the timer very inconsistent (e.g. I made a Pizza oven that sends me an email, and it wasn't hard to do at all).

[clownpenis_fart]

Aaaaah. Yesss. Finally my dream has come true and I can start laundry by pressing a button on my computer

wait what do you mean I still need to physically walk to the washing machine to load it this is bullshit

[readflaggedcomm]

Without the hardware to script moving wet clothes to a dryer, and possibly folding and sorting dry clothes, is there a point, other than to set an alarm to prevent a moldy forgotten wet load?

[mhh__]

That would be a start (the alarm sounds like a chain smoking mouse)

[tolbish]

Why should you be able to connect to run a script on a washing machine? Don't you need physically be there anyway to move the clothes around?

The only use case I can see is a notification when the cycle is done, but I think there are better ways to go about that than using an SoC.

[mhh__]

My washing machine has maybe about 300 to 600 permutations of options, none of which do exactly what I want.

[slver]

OK, so I need to be able to script my clothes, then.

[techdragon]

I’d argue that on average the engineers working on these things understand things just barely well enough to implement these things in whatever hardware/software combination is selected.

Any more understanding than that would be sub-optimal for shipping consumer products where cost optimisation is a primary concern as the salaries for more competent engineers would cost the company more.

You can see this effect in action with the explosion of “smart home” devices after commoditised internals were made available by the likes of Tuya. Suddenly your company only needed junior engineers who could skin the whitebox turn-key solutions and product designers who could design a moulded plastic enclosure around a standard set of postage stamp sized circuit boards.

[slver]

So your default assumption is that a company whose entire division may be selling washing machines, doesn't give a damn about the programs that make those machines useful.

Great.

[techdragon]

Yes and no, my assumption is that the company only cares about the programs being useful enough to sell the washing machine.

There is no incentive to be any better than that. When the average washing machine lives long enough that the majority of consumers will come back to their next purchase without feeling annoyed about software related issues. Extra frills that pushed them over the line into purchasing a particular model didn't quite work out how they hoped, the iPhone app didn't get updates and looks bad on their new phone, etc ... these things wont factor into their next purchase. It's a psychological time horizon thing, enough water passes under the bridge and the customer stopped caring long enough ago.

So as long as it was otherwise a solid washing machine that didn't have mechanical issues mechanically or wash poorly they aren't likely to hold the manufacturer to account for their poor software quality breaking the "nice to haves".

[mhh__]

Have you ever used Windows...

[azornathogron]

You're the first person I've ever seen who says they want a connected washing machine. I'm curious: what will your washing machine script do?

[mhh__]

Not require me to have to go up and down the stairs about 5-10 times to see how it's getting on, and then switch to dry, then check on its progress, etc.

[sime2009]

Why does it require so much babysitting?

[mhh__]

The timer has a mind of its own (i.e. it displays an estimate of when it thinks it's going to be finished), and the option to automatically start drying after finishing the wash cycle is either not present or extremely well obfuscated (The model that shows up on Google definitely has the option on the rotary encoder, the one I have has no such option).

[dwighttk]

Does this machine both wash and dry clothes?