[solatic]

Interesting to find this on the front page.

I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of community is strong.

The flip side is that internal community politics was horrible. People fought over the width of door frames in newly renovated housing because otherwise their houses weren't equal. People who turned their external salaries over to the kibbutz were often exploited, earning salaries that were a fraction of market rate, because they wouldn't see any of the extra. There were mentally ill people in positions of power who could not be removed because it was "their" position and their membership could not be revoked.

It's easy to look at kibbutzim and think that the grass is greener on the other side. But it comes at a deep price to your soul.

[vogon_laureate]

Yep. There’s a reason they have not become the dominant mode for living. Moshavim were already an exit strategy for many. I’ve seen similar internal conflicts and power issues in anarchist communities and worker co-ops in Europe too.

Still, I do appreciate that in the early days kibbutzim were a pragmatic and necessary strategy for group cohesion and cooperation under stressful conditions.

[petra]

I think they haven't become the dominant mode because they only work at the small scale, and are far from the densities of cities, which are often a necessity.

And they're also harder to build, socially. Cities are just easier.

[natmaka]

I don't know about kibbutzim, however it seems to me that in many (most?) tribal zones such ordeals had at least a solution: some (many? most?) members were able to depart.

Confronted with some inept behavior, rule or chief... they will simply defect to another tribe (often to join other people, either defectors or individuals who departed to marry).

This was a king of regulator, as worsening internal politics progressively disbanded a tribe.

In our nations, today, that there are cases of such ordeals, and cutting chains may be more difficult or even impossible, especially for the non-affluent.

[shahar2k]

I never lived on them but some of my parents’ friends were kibbutznikim, I distinctly remember a dinner with one talking about how much he hated growing up there, being forced to leave your parents young and live in a communal “kids’ house” specifically, I got the impression it wasnt all bad, but not something he’s repeated with his own children.

[petra]

//People who turned their external salaries over to the kibbutz were often exploited, earning salaries that were a fraction of market rate, because they wouldn't see any of the extra.

Sure, that doesn't seem fair, but how do you price a free house, and an option for one for your children, in a country where most people live in apartments and only something like the top 10% live in houses?

And how do you price the job security a kibbutz gets you? In a country with a tough job market?

[solatic]

You misunderstand, I guess because I kept my post brief. This person was a software engineer working for a non-kibbutz company, so the non-kibbutz company was paying that person's salary to a kibbutz bank account rather than to the person. The salary was about $30,000/year for an end-of-career senior developer, who was easily worth triple that or more. From her perspective, she didn't see a point in trying to move jobs or ask for market-rate, because either way, whatever salary she earned went straight to the kibbutz. The kibbutz didn't complain about the exploitation salary because it was "enough" and the non-engineers running the kibbutz didn't know what people are supposed to be paid.

So everybody loses. The kibbutz loses because it gets way less hard cash than it would otherwise be able to get. She lost, leave the economics out of it for the sake of argument, because the reality of exploitation is that you suffer in your work relationships as a result.

A kibbutz doesn't give you job security. If you are supposed to be earning from outside the kibbutz, and stop working, then you face social ostracism and shame within the insular community. That's not security.

[petra]

That's interesting.

I'm not sure that software engineer lost. If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip. She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc.

But of course it still depends how people treated her and how she felt her status was. But that could go either way.

[solatic]

> If she only cost her employer a third of a salary, that quite a big bargain chip.

Maybe this would be the case if engineers were replaceable cogs in the machine. If every cog is the same, then the cheapest cogs make you the most money, right?

Except that engineering doesn't work like this. Engineers aren't directly replaceable, and replacement costs still need to be paid for anybody who would replace them. If you do not value the engineers that you have, then quite simply, you do not value them.

[petra]

I know of a software engineer that worked in a manufacturing plant.

The salary was significantly lower, but the the work was easier and the rate was slow. Heck he even replaced his manager once the manager retired.

Not everything is about money, as long as you don't need the money.

[cutemonster]

> She could have used it to get more flexibility, better job security, maybe a more interesting role, etc

She could have had a 3 x higher salary and done all those things (or so I think, based on GP's description).

When you understand your own worth (workplace wise), the others respect you more, and it's simpler to change things the way you want.

[detritus]

I always wanted to go on a kibbutz but have never even managed to visit Israel. One day, perhaps.

I ended up spending a decade living in a warehouse community, wherein ours had 20+ people downstairs, 15+ people upstairs and a number of similarly-sized units as neighbours.

The model is different, of course, but the insularity of community, pettiness and sociopathic/nutter-members you hint at in your post was very much in evidence. Gets tiresome and clogs development.

I now live in a normal house, and am much happier for it.

Good times though!

- ed - minor addition

[tomcam]

Would you mind contacting my email address? So many questions...

[narrator]

Are there any kibbutzes that make all or some decisions using a blockchain DAO? You could even have a fully remote kibbutz that way.