[Aeolun]

On the plus side, the average level of engineers in Europe seems to be fairly high.

On the negaive side, yeah, all the truly high talented people will leave because the salaries in Europe can be so laughably low.

Trying to figure out how to move back to my home country now, but short of director level positions, there’s just nothing with a comparable salary range.

[GuB-42]

Just to let you know. I am a French developer, making around ~45k€. While I won't pretend to be "truly high talented", I am convinced that by moving to the US and I could double that. But... I don't want to.

I live in Southern France, which is a nice place (with good food). I have enough money to do almost whatever I want and have savings. I have 7 to 8 weeks/year of paid leave, which I can use pretty much when I want to. Health/unemployment insurance is included. Granted, I have no kids (by choice), but what more could I want? More money for what? Luxuries I won't even enjoy because I would be overworked?

I like the US and its people, and I understand that my way of life is not everyone's, but that's to give you some perspective on why some very talented European may want to stay in Europe despite the "low" pay.

A friend of mine, a mother of one, was almost begged by Google to work for them, with I suppose, the kind of pay a PhD in natural language processing can expect. She refused, instead preferring a much lower pay but with an incredible work/life balance.

[dopidopHN]

Yeah. French dev kinda stuck on the other side for families reason. You are on the right side of the fence, they have no idea.

Salary are insane here in the US. Like: not following sane guidelines.

I’m currently at times 5 what I would earn back home. I don’t think it’s gonna stop. Every job is a solid 20% increase.

As soon as I can, I’m still gonna go back to civilisation. Auvergne, here I come.

They are just pushing me out of the workforce earlier by giving me more money. Also: what is your fucking problem with vacations?

[kmonsen]

Not double, easy 10x for a decent senior engineer at a top 10 software company.

I am sure you are making the best trade off and respect that, but use the real values. Double is for a fresh grad in top US markets.

[datameta]

108k for a fresh grad? That's just not accurate.

The Greater NYC area will net an entry level dev 60-75k max in most cases. 108k is much closer to the average, taking into account highly experienced outliers.

National average of entry level dev salaries for reference: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Software-D...

[auspex]

Even startups pay somewhere between 120k and 150k for a fresh graduate in CS (Bay Area).

If you’re not then I would suggest learning a bit more about negotiating. Ask for what you want. The worst they can do is say no... but you’re very rarely going to lose an offer for asking for too much. They already spent months finding you. If it’s in budget or the pay band you’ll get it.

[6gvONxR4sf7o]

At least in SF it’s totally accurate.

[jsolson]

Taking a glance at levels.fyi, in NYC for people with one year of experience there isn't a single entry from Google below $150k. Similar for Amazon.

[ornornor]

FAANG hire maybe the top 5% of SEs. By definition most of us will never get there. Especially if you don’t have the willpower to waste months for training to the interview.

[datameta]

FAANG salaries are outliers, no doubt about that

[6gvONxR4sf7o]

Are they outliers? Most public “name brand” tech companies I can think of out here pay like that. Uber/airbnb/lyft come to mind. Hell, I’m at a under the radar (but still public) company and we get paid the same as FAANG. Sure it’s not the norm, but outlier is a stretch. Especially when you account for the disproportionate headcount at the high paying companies.

[fnord77]

my shop is paying $125k for undergrad CS/computer engineering just out of school

[bombcar]

Finding a way to consult for some US companies could get you your €45k a year for half a year's worth of work; and you could start small during those weeks of paid leave. Location arbitrage.

[GuB-42]

I could do that, I think. I know someone who does that. He worked in the US for some time and went back to France consulting for both French and American companies. Lots of time off and good pay (for France).

But... he is self employed, which means a significant part of his work includes sales and management. That's something I don't enjoy doing and I am very happy having a boss do it for me. He also has more tax and less employee protection and other advantages, which he compensates by having insurance, but that extra expense is to be considered when comparing income (it is still more than me in the end).

As I said, I am content with my life, even though I know I could make is "better" if I really wanted to. It is just an insight on a reason why many engineers prefer to stay despite the "low" pay.

Also worth noting that many French people dislike the very idea of working in the US. Sometimes because they don't like the culture or the sometimes misguided idea they have of it. Sometimes it is the language, or just moving and leaving their relatives behind. Canada, especially Quebec can be a "milder" alternative, I have several friends who went there, some stayed, others came back, I think the pay was higher there every time.

[Rapzid]

For a lot of companies you would be working as a "contractor" simply because they don't have a business entity in France. You would essentially be a full-time employee in every regard outside how your pay and benefits are managed.

No excessive self-promoting, networking, or book keeping necessary.

[BrandoElFollito]

I fully get what you are saying.

I am French and live in the western suburbs of Paris. I have a job that does not require me to get into Paris and despite having had several opportunities, I passed.

I like the quiet environment, biking to the office, even if it means a lesser pay.

[ZephyrBlu]

It's not black and white. I'm working remotely in New Zealand making more than 45k euros with 1 YOE and my company seems to care a lot about W/L balance.

I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance.

[dopidopHN]

I will respond as a French dev working in the US since a small decade.

Let’s just start by saying that back home, every worker has 5 week of pays vacation by law.

Most qualify worker get 6 , and it’s not uncommon to go in the 7 or 8 with seniority.

Just with that simple fact the « work life balance » a US company has to offer is kinda cute compared to what I would get automatically.

Then come childcare, education and healthcare. Being childless in the US is fine, but when you see the cost of a child you understand the large salaries.

Something I still don’t get after 10 years is how poor people afford kids in this country.

[dougmwne]

And that's only the half of it. I work for a small software company based in the US with low salaries for the industry. We recently had a benefits meeting and the health insurance scheme was explained with all the little details about the ways you can still receive big bills if you aren't carful. It's mind boggling that this $10,000 per employee per year plan can still result in serious bill anxiety for software engineers working 12 hours a day, living in studio apartments in a HCOL city. The quality of life in the USA can be quite bleak.

[Rapzid]

> Let’s just start by saying that back home, every worker has 5 week of pays vacation by law.

The laws and baselines could be better for sure. But in the context of Software Engineering for a talented person it's possible to work for non-FAANG companies that pay quite well and offer things like "unlimited" vacation. Unlimited enough that up to 8 weeks a year spread out a bit is not going to cause any issues.

> how poor people afford kids in this country

They live a different life-style. Much more multi-generational and community support for child raising.

[6gvONxR4sf7o]

> Unlimited enough that up to 8 weeks a year spread out a bit is not going to cause any issues.

That varies by a huge amount depending on company and team and manager. I have unlimited PTO and if I took 8 weeks in a year, I’d be an outlier. I’d also have to be very very careful about optics.

[dopidopHN]

I’m a software engineer with a lot of demonstrable skills and good credentials.

Like I said in another comment the money is stupid high in this industry and country.

I take it of course. And I had unlimited PTO 3 times in 3 different places at this point.

It depend greatly of the implementation. But overall I feel that the only real time off I get is between jobs. Where I usually take one full month. ( if the next job refuse; I take it as a red flag )

It’s not the same, unlimited PTO have to be placed carefully and you have to be mindful about optics.

PTO that you earned and are enumerated on your pay stub are more enforceable.

I would rather have 4 week of normal PTO that a unlimited vacation policies that I’m not sure will be well inplemented.

Large companies tends to do it correctly. In that context I was usually taking 5 weeks. But with some stress and guilt and kinda check my work inbox.

Not the same. But then …you guys have those massive paychecks… I will take them while I can.

[Frost1x]

>I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance.

They are increasingly difficult to find.

[emj]

I've done work for one American company selling services in EU, the pay was beyond amazing and lots of work benefits I could never get from local companies. But work life, considering the jargon of the US managers I really wonder how people in the US have time for anything but work. I'll take less pay and happier life any day.

I think someone on HN commented on life in Denmark from a US perspective; that people are only happy because they settle for less. My personal experience is the exact opposit, better life can only come at the expense of work productivity.

[pjmlp]

Yeah, Portuguese living in Germany, and have lived in several other European countries before.

I would rather move to other European country to ever bother with US, exactly for the same reasons you mention.

[Aeolun]

True, my comparison isn’t really with the US. It’s with Japan, which has most of the socialist goodness that Europe has aside from the generous leave policies (but tons of national holidays to sort of make up for it).

It also sort of implicitly includes the assumption that you still won’t work more than your 7.5-8 hours a day. Working 50% more for 50% more salary obviously is no gain at all.

That said, while I know that the word ‘stress’ didn’t really apply to my jobs in Europe, I find it hard to turn back the clock on my expectations (for both pay and work/life balance).

If I don’t go back I’m hoping I can build a little enclave of sanity for my team here at least.

[this-pony]

I would argue against the statement that all 'truly high talented people' (whatever that may mean) will leave Europe because the salaries are too low. At least in Academia I know plenty of smart people happily working away in Europe. I suppose it may well be different outside of academia, but not every (smart/talented) person in the world has a high salary as their #1 priority. To me, and to many of my friends/acquaintances, quality of life is also extremely important. I would rather, in the long term, live in a economically and politically stable country with good public (health) services and receive mediocre payment, than to receive high payment but with poor quality of life.

[ta988]

You can get good quality of life in US even without a monstruous salary, and political situation is not really worse than what is happening in Europe...

[marmot777]

One of my best friends is a CS prof in Sweden and loves it there and he finds the academic culture less stressful and cut throat than here.

[IdiocyInAction]

Well, it's not necessarily easy to leave. Getting into the US is hard and Canada seems to only be marginally worth it, at least the last time I researched that.