[throwaway-bozo]

I am well into those years myself, and respectfully, while I agree with the importance of being humble and remembering the incredible challenge of the task, the bozo bit can be very valuable. Not everyone in this industry is a hardworking talented joy operating in good faith.

To give a concrete example, at one point in my career, I was leading a team trapped on a death march project. We did not have the option of abandoning it, due to a meaningful fraction of the company’s revenue riding on its success. We did not have the option of more resources for the usual reasons. And we did not have the option of more time, because executives had already de facto announced when it would be done. Unfortunately, our direct upstream dependency in the company saw us as a rival - because they had wanted to own this project - and spent multiple years trying every way they could to sabotage and undermine us, including lying to us in meetings, lying about us to others, changing key system aspects to make our problem harder to solve, denying access to critical resources and people, pitting vendors against each other, and giving unsolicited negative peer reviews to people working on our team.

To say this was a difficult experience would be an understatement. I had four employees quit. I myself started having panic attacks twice a week and was in therapy for over a year to work through the crippling anxiety I was feeling every waking moment. I still have persistent health issues from the incredible stress of those years. We landed the thing, got our pats on the back, and then I quit.

The main guy responsible for this campaign of sabotage and mistreatment was much higher level than me in the company and punching down as hard as he could. He left successfully for a larger role at another company once it became clear that our team was going to hurdle any roadblock he threw at us. It was a knock-down, drag-out fight. I will never do anything like it again.

If I ever found myself working with that person or any of his leads again in any capacity I would quit instantly. The bit is set.

[busterarm]

Here here! I can get behind this for sure.

I also agree with the utility of the bozo bit. I worked somewhere where a long time engineer got Peter/Dilbert Principled at just the level of Team Lead. Once you've done four years or so in the org, they don't fire you just motivate you to quit. Anyway, this person gets moved into a Lead role with a team of one person where he can do the least harm. He's awful to work with, can't communicate properly and derails every meeting he's in with complete tangents.

Bozo bit!

[knl]

Why going through all of that (honest curiosity)? 4 people quit and you had panic attacks just to deliver something for a company that didn’t care much. Wouldn’t it have been easier that the whole team left early on? Your mental health would be way better, as well as of your teammates.

[throwaway-bozo]

When you’re in the thick of it, the fog of war is real.

It’s hard to overstate how hard it is to leave this kind of project as a manager. You spend years of your life building relationships with engineers and trying (and sometimes failing, admittedly, but trying) to protect them. You know the situation is a disaster and you want to get out of it. But you’re afraid of letting down your people and hurting their careers. You’re afraid the next person won’t be able to protect them as well. You’re afraid of losing the years in your resume and not accomplishing anything. You’re afraid of being a failure if you give up. When your body is breaking down due to the stress, you’re afraid to lose your health insurance.

You’re right - I should have quit as soon as it was clear it was a death march. But in the shit, I found it almost impossible to lift my head up and say “this is literally killing me, I quit”. When each individual day is at your maximum trauma threshold, it’s hard to work up the time, willpower, or ability to interview prep and change companies.

I regret it immensely.

[knl]

Thanks for clarifying, and really sorry that you had to go through all of that. As I read, I see that there were many factors at play, some of them personal, some of them cultural -- in my country, the health insurance doesn't depend on employer, for example. But on the other hand, I also saw some people here killing themselves to work, mostly not to let down others.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

Yeah, I read

> We did not have the option of abandoning it, due to a meaningful fraction of the company’s revenue riding on its success. We did not have the option of more resources for the usual reasons. And we did not have the option of more time, because executives had already de facto announced when it would be done.

And immediately concluded that the company has already committed to suicide and it's time to start sending resumes. Cross-team sabotage is icing on the cake but actually doesn't change anything here.

[williamtwild]

Some people dont have the luxury of being able to go even short periods of time without income.

[AndrewDucker]

Because quitting means they stop paying you.

And unless you live somewhere where new jobs are available that match your skills and current pay that can be enough.

[knl]

Dunno, I can't speak with certainty that I wouldn't stay and leave, as everything depends on the situation, but switching to a less demanding job and lower pay seems as something that would benefit me in the long run. My mental health and family are worth any price difference, that is, they can't pay me that much to stay in a shitty situation.

[Kalium]

One of the nasty things about a death march is that it drains you of the time and energy you need to search for a job that isn't a death march.