[hjek]

> I don't believe you can, because I understand how cheese works and nut paste doesn't work that way.

Totally agree. It's not quite the same. I'm prepared to occasionally abstain from certain well-tasting foods or use a less-than-perfect substitute out of solidarity with farmed animals and out of care for the planet. It's a trade-off. I agree.

> As to vegan "meat", that's just vegetables.

Yea, exactly. And sometimes mushrooms.

> Why do you need to eat vegetables and pretend to eat meat?

It's a good question. I think it's a bit more complex than pretending to eat meat. For me, personally, it's more about reclaiming certain dishes that we usually consider meat-based but that don't have to be, such as burgers and hotdogs.

For those who've just seen Cowspiracy or Earthlings and start to realize how harmful industrial animal agriculture is but also "can't live without their cheese and their meat", those meat substitutes are perfect. They substitute the taste but not the harm. They can make a zero-effort switch without changing any habits or learning to cook new dishes. It's the best of both worlds.

I love that 7-Eleven has started selling vegan hotdogs here. You get the choice of buying a delicious hotdog without having to worry about eating the body of someone who've been driven around in crowded trucks to then have their brains shot out with a pressure gun or being gassed. To me, it seems like self-delusion to buy the murder-hotdogs when the vegan ones are available.

[cheese_goddess]

I'm sure you've heard this one a thousand times before and you have the answer ready. I don't know the answer you have ready so I'm curious to hear it:

"Killing animals is not murder. Murder is when a human kills another human".

Go ahead then. Say your thing.

By the way, I think that hotdogs are gross and unhealthy and I wouldn't eat one, meat or no meat. Like I said in my original comment (from which it's true I digressed more than a bit) there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese. I don't understand why some vegans and vegetarians prefer to substitute the meat and dairy they say they don't want to eat anymore with fake versions, rather than learn to cook and enjoy food without meat and animal products. That to me is just lazy and self-deceiving.

[hjek]

To "murder" is often used in the meaning of to "kill intentionally and with premeditation". Was that not clear from the context?

> there are a ton of other things you can eat and enjoy that are vegetarian or vegan and that are not fake meat or fake cheese.

We agree completely here.

> That to me is just lazy

Again, I agree. However, I think it's good that we're creating opportunities for lazy people to eat vegan too (or people who don't have time to cook, or parents with picky children, or traditionalist family that insist that you can't have Christmas without roast pig, etc.).

[cheese_goddess]

>> To "murder" is often used in the meaning of to "kill intentionally and with premeditation". Was that not clear from the context?

The context was that killing a non-human animal is murder. Murder is when a human kills another human. When a human kills a non-human animal it's just a "killing".