[cheese_goddess]

You're asking me whether I think two big-name vegans who make movies and give TED talks about veganism are pretend-vegans? For pushing pretend-animal products? Yes! Yes they are! It's like asking me if the Pope is a pretend-Christian for pushing pretend-faith and pretend-salvation if you just do what he says. Sure he is!

You want to be like saint in the world and reduce harm? Then don't go baptising nut mush as "cheese" so you can enjoy what you have sworn off and are pontificating against, like the apocryphal stories of Catholic monks baptising their meat "fish" so they could eat it on Wednesday. Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.

[wyattpeak]

I was vegetarian for a while, and stopped because it turned out I wasn't willing to go without meat. Had really good meat substitutes existed at the time, things might very well have panned out differently, and I'd still be a vegetarian to this day.

Lots of people try and fail to become vegetarians because they don't find the substitutes acceptable. If you consider it a purely personal issue it probably doesn't matter, but if you're interested in lowering global animal product consumption, then I think ideological purity is the more morally questionable position than trying to develop a product that can convince the world to take up veganism.

[hjek]

> pretend-vegans [...] For pushing pretend-animal products?

I would agree that people who endorse pretend-vegan products are pretend-vegans. There are many products labelled as "veggie" that still contain egg, such as Quorn.

But your logic fails by assuming pretend-meat = pretend-vegan. You don't kill anyone by playing Doom, just like you don't eat anyone when eating vegan nuggets.

(Yes, there's an argument that violent games can lead to real-life violence, but are you really claiming that vegan meat-substitutes can cause harm by in some cases leading people to eat meat?)

> You want to be like saint [...] Then don't go baptising [...] then come to preach to me about mine.

I find it interesting how religious terms are used as an insult towards vegans. It's a very common and highly irrational defense-mechanism many carnists use when experiencing cognitive dissonance because of all the violence they're willingly and knowingly contributing to while also thinking of themselves as good people.

> Stop advertising meat and dairy with your actions, contrary to your words. Stick to your principles and then come to preach to me about mine.

The paradox here is this: The more you stick to your principles as a vegan, the more upset non-vegans can get, while simultaneously demanding that you do stick to your principles, because otherwise you're a hypocrite. I have heard these carnist proverbs before, and unfortunately they defy logic.

For instance, regarding sticking to principles, I choose to not sit at a table where animals are eaten, even if there's also vegan food available. I do this to stop endorsing meat, which is what you're demanding, but no doubt such a stance would upset you as well.

It's challenging to examine one's own beliefs. I've eaten too many animals myself. I hope you have a good day.

[cheese_goddess]

A lesson I learned early in life is this: just because someone is upset with what you're saying, doesn't mean your 're right, or that they're upset because you're right, or even that they're upset about what you think they are.

For example, what I find annoying in your comment is the casual attribution of thoughts, emotions, morals and life experiences to me that you have no way to know I have. But you go ahead and make the assumption I do anyway and then triumphantly proclaim you defeated my "logic".

For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is.

I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal to eat its meat. I don't believe it's immoral to kill another animal violently to eat its meat. Killing another animal requires violence that cannot be reduced to zero. And if you don't know what you're doing, you'll make matters worse because the animal will know what you're trying to do and then it'll try to run away and resist and cry for its mother. I know this very well. I know where my food comes from. I see my food running around when I look outside the window. I don't have any cognitive dissonance to work through.

Maybe you've eaten too many animals. I'm prepared to bet you have, especially if you come from North America or Western Europe, where people eat way too much meat and don't really know what to do with food unless it has meat in it. I do not come from such a culture and I haven't eaten too many animals.

Finally, I don't know how I'd react if you refused to sit at the same table as me because I'm eating meat. Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why?

You're making too many assumptions about my motives and experiences, when all I've said is that if you are vegan then you should stick to your principles and not eat meat or dairy. Are those not your principles? Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?

[hjek]

> For example, I am not a carnist. I don't even know what that is.

"Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )

> you should stick to your principles

You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.

This is additionally double-standards: Criticizing someone who tries to reduce harm for not being perfect (because of this alleged transgression of eating plant burgers, wtf?!), while giving a free pass for those who don't care. Surely it is better to try to reduce suffering and harm than to be indifferent?

> Or are you the kind of vegan that's OK with eating meat and dairy?

No. But I'm fine with plant milk and plant burgers, because those are not made out of animals or animal products. I like the taste and, most importantly, it has made vegan eating more accessible for my non-vegan family.

(Actually, I'm not too much into Beyond Meat, because it tastes too much like flesh for my taste, while I love Linda McCartney sausages. But that's just my own taste buds, and I don't worry too much about what tastes other people like.)

[cheese_goddess]

> "Carnism is the invisible belief system, or ideology, that conditions people to eat certain animals." ( https://carnism.org/carnism/ )

Someone made a webpage.

> You're measuring vegans by principles they're not claiming to have, such that eating plant-based meat and dairy substitutes is ethically wrong.

Are you measuring me by the principles I don't have? For example, do you think it's wrong for me to eat meat and cheese and any animal products I like, even though I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as you do?

[tommit]

> Probably, I'd think your'e a bit of an entitled prick, but be upset about it? Why?

Because you're really upset about some people substituting cheese with fermented nut butter while still calling it cheese. It's not really too far fetched.

[adt2bt]

You’re attempting to redefine ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever. I can see where a word for that might exist, but what is commonly considered ‘vegan’ is not your definition.

[cercatrova]

> ‘pure’ veganism as consuming no animal nor animal-like products whatsoever

Yes? This is what veganism is, is it not? Vegans don't eat animal products at all.

[adt2bt]

They can eat animal-like products though, such as Impossible burgers or nut cheese.

[cercatrova]

Well those can be argued as to not be animal-like at all, but plant-based. Similar to the point cheese_goddess is making here as well.

[cheese_goddess]

If vegans can redefine "cheese" then why can't I redefine "vegan"? You're saying that only vegans can distort commonly used terms to promulgate their beliefs? They can sell "vegan" cheese as propaganda for their ideals but I can't just say, well then, you're not vegan because you're eating cheese?

Why not?