[_flux]

So, basically, Google Docs is a keylogger?

Would that go along with the common consensus, or perhaps water down the term to near meaningless? Maybe Firefox is keylogging my input as well; and in fact, so is Linux. Keyboard itself, definitely.

Once I had X11 enter old keystrokes (so it had missed the read position in the input ring buffer and every stroke entered a key from the past); keyloggers all around.

Kidding aside, I believe it is important to use terminology all parties agree on; after all, words are a tool for communicating. Even if an individual finds a deeper or "fundamental" meaning in a word outside the typical use of a word, attempting to use and understand it in such a way hinders communication.

[BTCOG]

It honestly sounds like you've come to allow all types of keylogging to become (to yourself only) allowable and called by any other name. Yes, if Google Docs does actually take each keystroke and record it and save record of it, even once backed out/deleted from a field, this is in fact keylogging.

[luke2m]

I want my Linux box or my keyboard to get my keystrokes. I don’t want my typing on a website before submitting a form sent to a third party. Key logging is how Blacklight describes it.

[hvdijk]

Agreed, if there is consensus on what a word means it's unnecessarily distracting to use it in a different sense. In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is.

[eitland]

> In this case, the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software, so we shouldn't insist here that it is.

The common meaning of keylogger is restricted to stealthily recording an unsuspecting users keyboard input.

Malicious or not depends on the user who uses it and what they use it for and possibly also is in they eye of the beholder, but Google Docs or a an auto complete search field is not a keylogger by any definition I've seen used.

But what do I know, I've only been interested in this since the nineties.

[ChrisLomont]

>the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software

Over 99% of the hits on a google search use keylogger restricted to malicious software (sampled the first dozen or so pages). The first sentence in Wikipedia is "Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored". The top definition googling a definition is "a computer program that records every keystroke made by a computer user, especially in order to gain fraudulent access to passwords and other confidential information."

What metric did you use to conclude that the "common meaning" is not this common meaning? Not a single place I have found claims the common meaning is anything other than surreptitiously recording user keystrokes for nefarious purposes. Do you have even one such link?

[hvdijk]

I'm curious what you searched for, because the majority of the very first page of Google search results agrees with me, actually. Two of these say define keyloggers in a way that is inherently malicious, most give a neutral definition. They do go on to say how such software can be used by criminals, but most do not say that keyloggers are inherently malicious, and some very specifically deny that:

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3326304/what-is-a-keylogge...:

> Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user.

https://securelist.com/keyloggers-how-they-work-and-how-to-d...:

> The term ‘keylogger’ itself is neutral, and the word describes the program’s function.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystroke_logging:

> Keystroke logging, often referred to as keylogging or keyboard capturing, is the action of recording (logging) the keys struck on a keyboard, typically covertly, so that a person using the keyboard is unaware that their actions are being monitored.

https://home.sophos.com/en-us/security-news/2019/what-is-a-k...:

> A keylogger is an insidious form of spyware.

https://www.kaspersky.co.uk/resource-center/definitions/keyl...:

> Keyloggers are used for legitimate purposes like feedback for software development but can be misused by criminals to steal your data.

https://www.mcafee.com/blogs/consumer/family-safety/what-is-...:

> A keylogger (short for keystroke logger) is software that tracks or logs the keys struck on your keyboard, typically in a covert manner so that you don’t know that your actions are being monitored. This is usually done with malicious intent to collect your account information, credit card numbers, user names, passwords, and other private data.

https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/keylogger:

> Keyloggers are often used as a spyware tool by cybercriminals [...]. Keylogger recorders may also be used by: [...] These uses could be considered ethical or appropriate in varying degrees.

https://www.malwarebytes.com/keylogger/:

> Keyloggers are a common tool for corporations, which information technology departments use to troubleshoot technical problems on their systems and networks—or to keep an eye on employees surreptitiously. The same goes for, say, parents, who want to monitor their children’s activities.

https://enterprise.comodo.com/what-is-a-keylogger.php:

> At its most basic definition, a keylogger is a function which records or keystrokes on a computer. Taken at this basic level, a keylogger looks absolutely harmless. In the hands of a hacker or a cybercriminal, a keylogger is a potent tool to steal away your information.

https://us.norton.com/internetsecurity-malware-what-is-a-key...:

> A keylogger is a type of spyware that can be used to track and log the keys you strike on your keyboard, capturing any information typed. Keyloggers are insidious because you don’t know they’re there, watching and recording everything you type.

[ChrisLomont]

From your links:

1st: title mentions they're used by attackers. First sentence: "Keystroke logging software is one of the oldest forms of malware. Under "definition" they state "One of the oldest forms of cyber threat, these keystroke loggers record the information you type into a website or application and send to back to a third party"

Why did you take your sentence out of context? Those above and below state keyloggers are used for criminal activity. The article is about keyloggers being malicious.

Second link: "Today, keyloggers are mainly used to steal user data relating to various online payment systems, and virus writers are constantly writing new keylogger Trojans for this very purpose."

Well, I guess that defines the common usage, hence the word "most". The article also states that "keyloggers have pushed phishing out of first place as the most-used method in the theft of confidential information". So not only are they mostly used for crime, they are the number one method for stealing confidential information.

And most every other link you posted also either defines them as malicious or points out that most uses are malicious.

So, by what metric you claim ". Yes, a keylogger need not be malicious. But so far you competently have made the case that the common meaning is most certainly malicious, and it's not even a close assessment.

So - what was your metric to claim "the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software"? This list clearly supports that malicious use is by far the common meaning.

Please state your metric for "common meaning" then we'll test it. If you have no metric, we're done, since so far all the data points to your claim being false.

[hvdijk]

For the first link: here, you're either not actually reading or being blatantly dishonest. Either way, shame on you, and I'm not going to respond to anything else you write after this message. Feel free to reply to get the last word in. I'm not taking the sentence out of context, "Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user." is the whole damn definition. The rest of what follows is what that definition actually means, and impressive how you then conveniently leave the "However, they also have legitimate uses within businesses to troubleshoot, improve user experience, or monitor employees. Law enforcement and intelligence agencies also uses keylogging for surveillance purposes." out of it.

For the rest, nobody, not myself, nor anyone else here, has suggested that keyloggers are not primarily used maliciously. Of course they are, we all know that. The whole question is whether it's possible for non-malicious keyloggers to also exist, or rephrased, whether the definition of keylogger inherently excludes anything non-malicious. You're only looking at what they refer to using that term, which will be almost exclusively malware, but that's not the point, you're not looking at how they're defining the term.

[ChrisLomont]

>For the first link: here, you're either not actually reading or being blatantly dishonest.

Here is your quote written to represent the link: "Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user."

Here is that quote with the surrounding sentences:

"Keystroke logging software is one of the oldest forms of malware, dating back to typewriters. It's still popular and often used as part of larger cyber attacks. Keyloggers are a type of monitoring software designed to record keystrokes made by a user. One of the oldest forms of cyber threat, these keystroke loggers record the information you type into a website or application and send to back to a third party."

Now again tell me who is dishonest?

> they also have legitimate uses

No one disputed that. Your claim is the most common use of the term is not related to malware. Focus on the "most common" phrase you claimed - not the exceptional cases you're obsessing over.

Seems pretty clear the common usage is for malware, from this link, to web samples, to wiki and oxford definitions, to nearly every one of your links.

>nobody, not myself, nor anyone else here, has suggested that keyloggers are not primarily used maliciously

Also you

> "the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software"

?

The argument is not whether a program called a keylogger has other uses than malware. The argument is your claim that the most common usage of the term is not the criminal one.

And since you don't have a metric to base your claim "the common meaning of keylogger is not restricted to malicious software" on, you're right. We're done - your claim is nonsense and you cannot provide how you arrived (incorrectly) at what the common meaning is.

[karaterobot]

Strongly disagree that most people think of autosuggest in a search form as a keylogger. I've never once heard it referred to as such, outside this thread.

I think most people think of a keylogger as a malicious program that secretly records your keyboard activity when you don't know about it. If they think about it at all, they think of autosuggest as analogous to a form submission.

[volkk]

this is such a classic HN argument, it's almost comical. pedants from every part of the world going at it and even including google search results, picking apart each word that the original author meant to prove their point. this is the kind of conversation that would make me want to rip my head off in an office environment.

but from my POV i would also say that 95% of the time i've ever bumped into the term, it was always used in a cyber attack context. the other 5% was from corporate overlords wanting to spy on your actions.

[hvdijk]

Yeah, please take into account that I only listed the Google search results in reply to a blatantly false claim that Google search returned completely different results. Bullshit needs to be called out.