[lnsru]

So many wishful thinking. I bet there will be no changes after election. Why should it be? Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe. This pandemic management was/is real shitshow.

The universities are other funny thing. They have no future with heavily underpaid staff and work contracts for 6-12 month working contracts. Max Planck and Fraunhofer are sweatshops for industrial partners. They do the tasks for industry at 40% costs, again 1 year contracts and sad salary.

I don’t want to start about general technical level in Germany. I want to cry when I think about coming relocation and registering whole family in another city. Plus car. Plus another school. It’s all filing tens of pages and using snail mail or showing up in person. Or using fax machine as a modern solution.

[FabHK]

Oh come on, there is amazing progress in Germany on digitalisation and hi-tech. The government of Upper Frankonia is now switching from 4-digit fax numbers to 5-digit fax numbers!

https://www.regierung.oberfranken.bayern.de/presse/pressemit...

</s>

[hutzlibu]

Sigh. Satirical jokes don't work anymore, when reality is more ridiculous than anything you can imagine.

(oh and fitting, their government website does not seem to use a valid certificate )

[Hello71]

ssllabs is happy with it, seems like you are missing ISRG Root X1 and refuse to download intermediaries.

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.regierung...

[allendoerfer]

> Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe.

If what's currently happening to Germany (uninterrupted boom since > 10 years) is decline, then let there be more of it.

It's great, that you are living in the moment, but I take a step back once in a while. The other side of the fence is probably not greener.

Germany is by no means perfect. Administration is a shit-show. But stuff is indeed improving (very slowly).

[ChuckNorris89]

>If what's currently happening to Germany (uninterrupted boom since > 10 years) is decline, then let there be more of it.

If by boom you mean the boom of big business profits that don't trickle down to the workers, boom of wealth inequality, asset prices, property prices and rents then yes, but that's nothing to be proud of.

Average wages of workers in Germany have not kept up with this boom but cost of living has risen.

[allendoerfer]

Average real wages in the last ten years have steadily increased after being stagnant before. Inequality is lower in Germany than in China or the US.

I am not argueing that Germany is some kind of utopia. I am just saying: Find a better place to live. It will not be one of the dominant countries. It will be Switzerland etc.

[FabHK]

Agreed that it is not too bad in Germany, but the trend is pointing in the wrong direction. It is unclear whether there are political parties that have a reasonable response to the current challenges - some are complacent about it, and some go a bit overboard (Die Linke advocates a wealth tax of 5% a year for wealth above EUR 1m).

[lnsru]

Real estate prices tripled or even quadrupled during last 10 years while salaries haven’t changed a lot. The rents in the cities are not really affordable anymore. Look at the problems in Berlin when the city tried to control the rental prices and failed.

[allendoerfer]

Compare Berlin rents to any European capital. Man, reading all those replies, Germans do live in a bubble and do not know how privileged they are. Take a step back, look at London, realize how good you have it, just rent an apartment instead of buying one, put your money in the stock market and wait for the population to decline and the bubble to burst.

[durnygbur]

The difficult part in renting is compiling the documentation and to get accepted as a tenant. The dividend and capital gains taxes of 26.4% efficiently cool down unexperienced individual investors. The last 10 years have basically invalidated the possibility of buying housing for any individual on employment contract. Before anything will pop within next 10 years, German boomers will be chocking the remaining population even with their last death throes (while the elites holding the industry will be only consolidating their influence). ie. "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent, young, and sane".

[ivanche]

It's true that the capital gains taxes are really high. But there are at least some exempts: 1) first 801€ for an individual or 1602€ for a couple are tax free (every year); 2) if you invest in ETFs that invest primarily in stocks first 30% of capital gains are tax free

[allendoerfer]

> 2) if you invest in ETFs that invest primarily in stocks first 30% of capital gains are tax free

Citation needed.

I would argue the point is actuallly the opposite: Capital gains taxes are actually lower than income taxes on your salary. Properties do have an unfair advantage, though, because they can be sold tax free after 10 years.

We do need something like a 401k. But if you read the election manifestos of different parties for September, they are indeed in there.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Compare Berlin rents to any European capital.

Just resorting to whataboutism at every step doesn't magically make rents in Germany cheaper more easy to obtain for those in Germany.

The fact that Parisians or Londoners or Tokyans(is that even a word?) have expensive rents doesn't help me when I live in Germany since they're completely different markets and I only compete in my local market, not with those in Paris/London/Tokyo.

[allendoerfer]

HN readers learn a word that often helps to win arguments and then go on and try to use it everywhere.

Whataboutism is to use a different issue to show that the first issue is not that big, even though the second issue does not actually take away from the first issue and the first issue is worth discussing on its own.

What I am saying is: Rent in Germany is relatively inexpensive (even compared to income and especially compared to property prices). Because how do you determine if something is inexpensive? You compare it to something else. Comparing prices to determine if something is expensive is not whataboutism.

[hutzlibu]

"Administration is a shit-show."

It is. But ... there are probably not many countries with better administration.

[spdionis]

If german administration is a shit-show then administration is a shit-show everywhere. There are always people who will say "the 'administration' should know better!!!".

People have too high standards for leaders. They are also human.

[Mashimo]

> This pandemic management was/is real shitshow.

Why was the pandemic management a real shitshow?

[detaro]

First wave went well (probably in good part to dumb luck, but also because stuff just got done and less arguing about it), this made people somewhat complacent, second and third wave has been a shitshow of not wanting to be unpopular by locking things down and thus ignoring predictions, do last-minute changes when it's too late, apologizing for getting it wrong just to immediately repeat the same pattern, keeping things in an unstable and unsustainable situation for the past few months with no long-term planning (which also means the options are worse, because options that would have required long-term preparing aren't available and the available ones are badly thought out). Picking of random "target points" without apparent consideration what those actually mean outside of being some number that was compromised on and thus is now the benchmark. Way too much political manouvering with politicians pushing for "a common approach", agreeing with everyone on one, loudly announcing it, going back to their state and doing something entirely different. This dragged-out state with constant (but in many ways meaningless for many peoples experience) changes just drags on everyone while at the same time doing a bad job at keeping covid at bay.

EDIT: Random examples: lockdown laws that fail trivial legal challenges because they were made up last minute. Almost religious clinging to the belief that kids in school aren't a relevant factor (to the point of states suppressing evidence to the contrary) which lead to too little investment into teaching infrastructure and options, making each switch between kids in schools and not unnecessary last minute and painful to implement. Unnecessarily messy signup/notification processes for vaccinations (who would have thought one might need a plan to vaccinate people at some point...). Late adjustment of financial help schemes. Nonsensical and inefficient schemes to e.g. distribute masks.

[FabHK]

Good question. At the beginning of the pandemic, the government response was excellent (with Angela Merkel, who has a doctorate in quantum chemistry, promoting fact-based policies).

[Quick background: Germany has a political system not entirely unlike the US with a federal level and "Länder" = state level. Health (along with police, education, etc.) is delegated to the Länder.]

Towards the end of 2020, two things happened:

People developed "Coronamüdigkeit" (being sick of the restrictions), and in the run-up to the federal election in Sept 2021 (with Merkel stepping down), several prime ministers of the Länder tried to gain a higher profile (with an eye on the Bundeskanzler election later) by opening up. So, squabbling and inconsistent policy ensued, with a massive third wave happening right now.

Throw in corruption (several CDU politicians had to step down because of shady mask deals), the delayed vaccination drive, etc., and "shitshow" seems appropriate.

[ChuckNorris89]

>People developed "Coronamüdigkeit" (being sick of the restrictions)

People developed sickness of restrictions because the restrictions were not tight enough to completely stop the spread, but tight enough to become annoying when dragged along for so many months (a year?).

So this half-assed restriction policy were we're kind of, sort of, locked down, but not really, got people annoyed.

The problem is, even if you want to tighten the measures now to wipe out the virus, you can't, because people are already burned out from the previous half-assed measures trat dragged on for so long.

[FrojoS]

Not ordering enough vaccines and in a timely manner because wanting "a European solution" was perhaps the biggest fuck up.

Wasted billions for pennies and killed thousands of people.

[allendoerfer]

BioNTech (a German company) invents the vaccine known as Pfizer. German (and EU) administration then fails to roll it out.

Also weekly meetings changing (symbolic) measures, making everyone tired of the whole show.

[raverbashing]

There are over 100Mi doses of Pfizer/Biontech deployed in the EU as of today.

Sure, you can question the delays (which given the time between application and approval wasn't too different from the FDA)

[Mashimo]

> German (and EU) administration then fails to roll it out

Do you mean they have the vaccine but can't give it to people? I thought we did not secure enough of them.

> Also weekly meetings changing (symbolic) measures,

Yeah, that is not good.

You call that "a real shit show"?

Edit: Oh nevermind. You where not the person I asked. Sorry.

[allendoerfer]

> Do you mean they have the vaccine but can't give it to people? I thought we did not secure enough of them.

All of the above. Finally they are just giving it to doctors and now numbers are finally ramping up. Leave us some drinks at the opening party, Germany will be a few months late.

[lnsru]

Simple example. Quick test on Thursday 2 weeks ago before school. Whole class negative, cool! A call on Friday from school: we have 2 positive cases, please don’t come next week. Why all the quick tests!? They bring nothing.

Do you know how many vaccine was thrown away? https://www.sueddeutsche.de/gesundheit/impfstoff-coronavirus...

Let’s don’t start with Bavarian ffp2 masks while the rest of Germany can live without them.

[Thomasmack]

> Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe.

I agree and this is really sad. Thinking of migrating because I plan to have a family and want them to grow up in the best environment. Which countries you guys think will be the best bet?

[celticninja]

Europe will be a safer option than most others. Everywhere else will be a backwards step in terms of safety and education of your children. The US might seem like a better option for now with higher wages, but with the increase in the gap between rich and poor, how sure are you that your children will be on the rich side of that gap?

If you are a person of colour, even more reason to avoid the US. Not that Europe is perfect, but your chances of being shot by the police drop dramatically.

[mygoodaccount]

The highroading by Europeans regarding race never ceases to amaze me. I've never experienced more overt racism than during my limited time in Europe (specifically Germany, Netherlands, and Denmark).

The real difference here is American issues are broadcasted more than European ones are.

[celticninja]

real difference here is American issues are more often fatal

[lnsru]

Switzerland, maybe Norway, maybe Iceland. Singapore? New Zealand or Australia? You must decide. Nordic countries are too cold for me. Swiss salaries for engineers weren’t that different from my German salary. The others too far. I settled down between Munich and Alps. I love nature and still can reach Munich in 40 minutes if needed.

[hiq]

> Swiss salaries for engineers weren’t that different from my German salary.

Don't you (and your company) pay way more taxes in Germany than in Switzerland?

I've never applied to Munich positions but everything I've read point to a significant gap between Zürich and Munich in software engineering, even before taxes. But maybe that's only valid for software engineering and not so relevant for other engineering fields?

[lnsru]

I am an electrical engineer. My offers in Switzerland were ~120k CHF. I didn’t look at Zurich because of the crazy rental prices. My C# colleague got 160k CHF proposal in Zurich , that sounds okayish. But he wasn’t convinced seeing kindergarten cost of 3000 CHF monthly.

[hiq]

I admit I don't know how you end up when you factor in the price of kindergarten, it's significant indeed.

> I didn’t look at Zurich because of the crazy rental prices.

That's also where you have the highest salaries though... With the same reasoning nobody would work in the SV. And as soon as you start looking outside of the city center you quickly find cheaper accommodation.

But I think the main difference is really the taxes.

[Mandatum]

New Zealand and Australia aren't good choices. Rich and poor gap is growing faster than ever, legislation is regressing, housing and living costs are going up - wages are stagnating.

[ChuckNorris89]

What you just said literally applies to every European(world?) country.

There is no single country here where wages have increased faster than real-estate/cost of living and where the rich aren't getting richer while everyone else is stagnating at best.

It's a side effect of globalization and our current version of capitalism supported by (intentional) poorly designed economic policies that enable this wealth gap to grow ever larger.

[Mandatum]

How do we fix it?

[Glawen]

I disagree, Overall I find that Germany really strikes a good balance. Nice social security net, nice salaries, very low criminality, free school and universities, nice public transport. What else do you need to have a family? Real estate is indeed a bit on the expensive side, but it is the same situation everywhere else.

Yes you feel a decline because of the aging population and low business growth. I agree that a developing country will be more vibrant and you will feel more alive, but you will have to deal with a shit tons of other issues that are non existant in Germany.

[Thomasmack]

I agree with you that these points are currently good. But my question is whether it will look the same in 20 years' time. At the moment, I think that Germany lacks vision and is trying to achieve improvements through bans rather than concrete measures. In the countryside, public transport is still very poorly developed, but on the other hand, services like Uber or other forms of shared taxis are banned or given little support. Don't get me wrong: I am happy with my situation in the last few years, but I fear that future generations will no longer have such a situation due to a lack of vision and wrong measures.

[rsynnott]

I know a few people who've emigrated to Germany (from Ireland) precisely because it's good for kids (in particular, it has a good childcare situation AIUI; despite generally lower tech sector wages than Ireland people doing this can afford to have more kids due to subsidised childcare and cheaper housing).

I'm inclined to agree with the opinion upthread that Germany is maybe a bit overly negative about itself. :)

[amaccuish]

Oops, I just moved here and can't see me leaving. One person's rubbish is another person's treasure I guess :)