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by carlmr 1884 days ago
I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer.

Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly:

* physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay)

* pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like bus drivers)

* accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special)

* civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job

Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also work more, leading to a similar hourly rate.

One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US:

* Much higher job stability.

* Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid overtime.

* 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal.

* You almost never get called into work on the weekend.

* CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary buys you a decent life.

* No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.

3 comments

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany.

exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the same.

What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009) is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung", which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their clients office and are second class employees. When the project ends they're moved on to the next company if they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on the client site but the place where they organize this type of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.

Freelancers in Germany also have a problem which is called "Scheinselbstständigkeit". If you do too much work for only one client (there are no clear rules to follow) the public social security system might decide you are to be treated like an employee and your client suddenly has to pay pension insurance and health ensurance for the time you worked for them. Companies fear that because it's a huge chunk of money and to my knowledge this also contributed a lot to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" spreading so much into highly skilled positions.
Only if your company has a base in Germany. In my case I worked remote for a US-only company as Scheinselbstständiger, got the full US rates (ie 3x higher than german rates), and paid normal insurance. They had to pay nothing into the German SS system.
The same is the UK with so called IR35, no clear rules, grey areas all over the place, absolute shit show for freelancers and contractors.
May I ask what's your specialty and daily rate?
Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer.

25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).
Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria).

Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.

Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year.

Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself, but in my experience is something you decide to do it or not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )

>Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself

Well that was my point. There's no EU law that prevents you from having to do overtime.

Well, in Germany there's the Arbeitszeitgesetz ("work time law") which handles some of those things. I think unpaid overtime is not really common in Germany, especially in "better jobs".

Also agreements with trade unions etc. take care of a sane base-level of holidays and payment.

Germany is also "heavy regulated" in the sense that good people will just choose a job with a competitor who gives you 30 days of free time and paid overtime, although he might pay less.

I think work-life-balance tips slightly over to the worker in a welfare state, because you can choose to earn 100 Euro/month a less but have more holidays AND still have not to worry about paying doctor bills.

Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.

That describes every job I've had in Sweden over last 6-7 years or so. But then again I've made a conscious effort to void some of the 'crunchier' industries (like game studios and certain startups), which admittedly does mean getting paid a bit less.

I worked in France and vacation was 28 days for us, 2.333 days/month.

Overtime does happen but French law requires I be able to recover my time (RTT). In my experience there is a mad rush to use up that time before 31/12 so you'll see an additional holiday season around Nov-Dec. Else, it goes away and that time is lost to the fiscal year.

30 days of holidays are pretty easy to come by, 35h however is rarely the case. 40h and more is more or less the norm here.
> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer.

You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

> but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.

They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and finding multiple clients per year.
Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people. There are also uncertainties around how long and how much you can work for a single client without causing issues for your client, although I usually don’t do contracts longer than 6mo. I think it still is far better than working salaried, at least for me.
Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's see if that comes back to bite me at some point.