[bonjourmr]

Do you know what is a real shame? This statistic doesn't really correlate with the highest quality output.

Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use. Our digital landscape is quite conservative & somewhat arguably boring, consisting of mainly traditional finance/banking & insurance - and we all know how these companies work internally (digital as a cost centre).

Don't get me wrong, there are a few startups floating around who are growing up e.g., Canva, Campaign Monitor, Atlassian (for which I'd argue is a US company), but even the bigger ones only hire a couple of thousand on-shore devs a piece. Most of the good devs with half an inkling go overseas when they finish Uni to earn good coin and work on far more shaping stuff.

I think we are risk-averse in Australia due to life being pretty good on average here (so what's the point?), which is fine, but more jarringly; the Government do very little to assist or incentivise entrepreneurs. I wish they did more, we'd see way more talent remain here and plenty of more ideas come to life!

[SilverRed]

>Most of the good devs with half an inkling go overseas

No they don't. Because not everything is about money. Life in Australia is just better than some war zone in California.

[sunsipples]

I have been offered increase in pay to work in LA/SanFran/NY/UK/SouthAmerica/UAE and each time I knock it back because each time I have visited those places I could not wait to leave them. UAE was twice the money. The cost and conditions of life in Au are so much better.

[mythz]

Can concur, as an Aussie expat having spent 7 years in NYC/NJ returned to a much better lifestyle in WA before my kids ever have to go to a school in the US.

No longer have to worry about gun violence, surprise bankrupting medical bills & an anti-intellectual population prolonging the devastation of a virus that's killed >500k of the fellow population.

There's going to be better opportunities to work for mega tech conglomerates in the US but I'd expect great devs will be able to get hired remotely, although the salary for IT professionals is pretty decent in Australia as well.

[diob]

Definitely agree. I've had the opportunity to visit and work in Australia (Melbourne in particular, love that city). Everyone is so much friendlier than in the USA.

No one understands the weird cultural shit we (USA) have around guns / healthcare.

The big cities in Australia have lots of cultures melting together, great food, even better coffee, and decent transit. What more could you want?

[Niksko]

There are plenty of places that aren't California that still pay double or triple the salary that devs make in Australia

[aesthethiccs]

that's cool but you can't fix all the problems in usa with triple salary.

> healthcare > unlimited homelessness, in one day in la i saw more homelessness people then in my entire life in australia, this was only eclipsed by san fran. now i get why devs are leaving california, i wouldn't raise a family there. > gun violence > political instability > terrible pre-12 education system. > general shitty american population (why do you need to clap and chant so much)

[InvertedRhodium]

> > gun violence > political instability > terrible pre-12 education system. > general shitty american population (why d

Well, one of these things is most definitely not like the others.

[frongpik]

Gun violence exists only on media outlets. However 600k/year deaths from cancer is very real and the US healthcare won't miss a chance to bankrupt those people before they die.

[monkeycantype]

In a life in Australia I got shot at once by a guy who thought I was a kangaroo and apologised, in five years in the us, I had guns drawn on me 5 times twice by police on one occasion at least five guns, twice by strangers unprovoked threatening to kill me, and once more or less abducted. I love California, I really really love it, but gun violence and the threat of it is not a media beat up. The difference in the feeling of threat in us v Australia is quite different, on average, there are places in Australia that are not safe, and in the end I believe the causes are the same, there are places in both countries where the inequality is brutal, and where the sanctioned violence that maintains economic disparity is on clear display

[frongpik]

The risk of being shot in the US is below obscure kidney problems. Guns is a microscopic problem in the US that looks big only under the media's microscope. The real elephant is cancer.

[deminature]

NYC is one of them. Still requires you relocate 10000 miles away from your friends and family, which isn't for everyone.

[busterarm]

Williamsburg has a large population of Australian expats. The Australian dev we just relocated already had a good 10 friends there.

[jay_kyburz]

NYC is the only place in the US I was actually impressed by, and if I was a single guy with no family I could consider living there. Everywhere else I traveled was meh.

[DubiousPusher]

Where did you go though? I mean it's kind of a huge place.

[jay_kyburz]

I mean Manhattan, the touristy parts.

[DubiousPusher]

> war zone in California

What? I mean, I don't live there and I don't really like it there (except the central coast region) but that characterization is a bit much.

[alfiedotwtf]

I used to think Skid Row was just a band name. Then I read this whole article and then noped out of LA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_Row,_Los_Angeles

[intothemild]

Aussie eng here.. life in Norway is amazing.

[bogantech]

How does the pay compare? I got paid twice as much in Aus vs Sweden & got better health care down under too

[s5300]

Where exactly is this war zone in California...?

Growing up in the sticks I'd heard so much about it and had hilariously low expectations when I went out for an internship, but then I found out that it's a fucking amazing place. I swear there's got to be a decades long campaign to make outsiders think the place is terrible in an attempt to keep density down. Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy if so. Don't want my paragliding ocean bluffs overpacked with people. :P

[InvertedRhodium]

While I agree that the other poster was being a bit dramatic, it's no stretch to say that California performs objectively poorer in a number of areas that people tend to pay attention to. Just take one crime - the murder rates in California are 4.3 per 100,000 and only 0.8 in Australia.

I can see why some people could see a 450% increase in the likelihood of being murdered as a comparitive warzone.

[DubiousPusher]

> the murder rates in California are 4.3 per 100,000 and only 0.8 in Australia.

But isn't that true of most of the U.S. We have more crime everywhere than most the rest of the world. And especially violent crime.

[ALittleLight]

Looks like (from a quick googling, may be something I'm not taking into account here) violent crime is actually more common in Australia than in California.

Australia 692 violent assaults per 100k [1]

California 430 assaults per 100k [2]

So, you'd also be trading more of a rare really bad thing for less of a relatively common bad thing.

1 - https://www.osac.gov/Country/Australia/Content/Detail/Report....

2 - https://www.ppic.org/publication/crime-trends-in-california/....

[InvertedRhodium]

An obvious flaw is that it's comparing an entire country to a singular (and disporoprotionately wealthy) state. If you expanded the rate to America in general the violent crime rate is around 800 per 100k, and if you reduced "Australia" to "New South Wales" then you also see a similar drop - but the site doesn't provide an easy to consume summary.

The web app doesn't seem to support direct linking to query results, but it's in here: http://crimetool.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/bocsar/ under Assault - Non Domestic.

At the end of the day though - people tend to consider being murdered a significantly more disruptive event than getting punched in the face.

[nostromo]

> An obvious flaw is that it's comparing an entire country to a singular state.

California has a much larger population and twice the economic output of Australia. It seems much more reasonable to compare Australia to one state than to compare it to the entire US.

[ALittleLight]

Why would you compare it to the US? The US has an order of magnitude more people. California is comparable in population. The right thing to do would be to compare the locales where you would spend time in each place, e.g. the violent crime rate in your neighborhood or would-be neighborhood matters most, then city, and maybe state.

[bigfudge]

That assumes assaults in the US are reported the same way. Murders probably are because there is a body. I doubt I her crime is given the weird incentives in the US system.

[femiagbabiaka]

This is one case in which crime metrics are completely useless for getting an image of what it actually “feels” like to live in a city. American cities are incredibly segregated by economic and racial class. Crime is everywhere, but largely centered in a few especially poor areas. Outside of the core economic centers (and I’m talking neighborhoods), large swaths of the people who work and live in SF are living predictable and safe lives.

[alfiedotwtf]

I replied above, but read this whole page. Like wtf do places like this exist in America?! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_Row,_Los_Angeles

[deminature]

Market St in SF is what most Australians see when attending conferences. The homelessness, human waste, open drug use, and visibly serious mental illness is pretty confronting for anyone not used to it, and that's at daytime - it gets significantly scarier at night if you make the mistake of walking back to your hotel. I've never understood why all the hotels international guests stay in are in by far the worst neighborhood.

[DubiousPusher]

It's grodey and depressing but hardly a "war zone".

[deminature]

Last time I was there, someone was openly defecating in front of city hall, next to multiple people shooting heroin. I had to step over someone who had collapsed apparently from drug use, in front of a restaurant entrance, and nobody seemed to care. It's about as close to the third world as exists in the west. I recognize there's extremely nice parts of SF, but most out of state/international guests stay around Tenderloin/SOMA and would never know that.

[alfiedotwtf]

I stayed in Tenderloin and was shocked when walking back to hotel people having sex on the footpath in front of their tent, while a few tents down someone shooting up. Then what looked like a 14 year old (at most) prostitute soliciting at the corner.

I’ve spent a lot of time on the depths of the Philippines, and never saw anything that bad... and that was during a single stroll to the hotel!

[InvertedRhodium]

I'm not sure if you appreciate how utterly surreal that visage is to someone who is 3 hours off a flight from Sydney.

It honestly feels like a scaled down version of the slums you see in South Africa butting right up against typical suburban homes.

[DubiousPusher]

Sure I do. I'm from picturesque, rural Montana. My first visit to LA in the 90s was quite shocking. But a war zone implies a level of lawlessness that doesn't apply. Most of what is going on, people using drugs, using the bathroom on the street, etc, it isn't good but it doesn't really affect you. In a war zone, you have high odds of being maimed or killed any second for no good reason. It's a poor analogy. I think the homelessness is a problem we need to desperately to address but this kind of militant rhetoric doesn't help at all. In fact for several decades here it has made things worse.

[ironmagma]

People in San Francisco will threaten you with violence just for wearing a nice-looking jacket. Nothing about that is healthy.

[anonymoushn]

I lived near 5th and Market and walked to a tech company I love very much near Giants Stadium. This is a short walk. One place I regularly walked by was the site of a random slaying by a person who had been released from prison after being arrested for randomly assaulting people in the same place years before.

[flukus]

> Where exactly is this war zone in California...?

No idea how universal these things are in all of California, but nearly every Australian that visits LA and a few other areas come back with stories about hearing gunshots from the hotel, accidentally ending up in a seedy/crime ridden part of town or something similar. This is very alien to us and more in line with what we'd see on the news from Somalia. Statistics like homicide rates and gun crime show there's at least some truth it.

We're also a fairly egalitarian society, so much more likely to judge other nations on how well off the poorest are and not the richest.

[rxhernandez]

I have lived in LA county for more than 25 years and lived in East Hollywood ~1 year. I have never heard gunfire anywhere in LA. I'm sure it happens in the worst areas but I've never heard it and I've been around plenty of recreational gunfire (outside of LA).

Do you think it's possible they're mistaking gunfire with fireworks? There are plenty of fireworks here.

[alfiedotwtf]

> I'm sure it happens in the worst areas

I think the fact that those areas exist comes as a shock to Australians, who are used to gun control and probably never heard let alone seen a single gun in their lifetime

[monkeycantype]

The poster was being hyperbolic. I love California, but as on outsider I didn’t have the sense of which areas were or weren’t dangerous, and to be honest just couldn’t read it, and got myself into dangerous situations. That would never happen in Australia because I can read people and places in ways, and it surprises me that this is true, that I seemed to be culturally blind to in the US. I’m still confused about Compton, to my eyes it read as an easy going middle class neighborhood, is it? - was Dre exaggerating all this time? . In both LA and Oakland (where I mostly lived) there were nights where there was extended gunfire. To be honest this happens in Australia too, but I assume that it’s people out hunting. Oh hang on - I take that back the Proudlock brothers used to shoot each other with air rifles.

[femiagbabiaka]

sssshhhhhh

[bonjourmr]

I agree personally that it's not about money, but It's an individual scale I guess

[DevoidSimo]

Plus, you can get great money working at one of the FAANGs that are here. It's not quite at the level of the US, but higher than the companies the GP was referring to from what I've heard of their comp.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

That's extremely subjective. It's entirely dependent on what your preferences are. Even an objective comparison cannot account for individual tastes.

[shric]

To be fair we have it far easier in Sydney than over in Silicon Valley. For example most (but not all) Sydney Googlers choose to stay in Sydney even though they have the chance to relocate to e.g. Mountain View or Sunnyvale for more than double the comp. This is because of the work life balance and culture here in Sydney compared to over there.

(I worked at Google Sydney for 5 years)

[bonjourmr]

Yeah, I touched on the lifestyle here being good, I completely relate - I just think it creates a conundrum.

Given this reality, we'll continue to be safe/slow followers to the rest of the world. Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc.

I don't want life to change, but in the bigger picture, I don't want us to fall behind in the pack.

[nightowl_games]

> Which is sad given this statistic! It is a huge wasted opportunity where we could be leaders in ideation, creations, thoughts, inventions etc.

The statistic is about devs doing well on coding tests, not about any of the creative, innovative things you list.

Perhaps they are inversely related.

[ZephyrBlu]

What are the differences in W/L balance and culture between SV and Sydney?

[threeseed]

Apart from Sydney having almost perfect weather and being one of the most stunning cities in the world there are the political aspects.

Free healthcare, basically no gun crime, far less polarisation, more family friendly, far less homeless, a more successful multiculturalism environment, strong societal bonds i.e. we were able to get most of the country to agree to large scale lockdowns and mask wearing.

Mateship and community are embedded in the DNA of the country whereas in the US it's freedom and individuality. And those different styles permeate through everything.

But then S/V has the incredible IT and startup community which is unparalleled anywhere in the world.

[astrange]

US FAANG health insurance is better and cheaper than (Australian) Medicare, which doesn't cover dentists/therapists/psychiatrists/etc. Universal systems are of course better once you're too sick to keep your job.

Also, Sydney's cost of living and housing crisis is apparently even worse than SV, though I don't understand how that's possible. We're very dedicated to making housing expensive here.

[domlebo70]

Yeah maybe FAANG health insurance IS better and cheaper, I don't know. But I do know the general populous is better off with their insurance in Aus than the US. It's not just about your insurance, but about everyones. Less homeless, less poverty etc.

[astrange]

The homelessness is a West Coast thing caused by not having enough housing and banning cheap fixes like SROs. A lot of other things like mental health problems too, but many of those are caused by homelessness rather than causing it.

Even NYC doesn’t have as much of a homeless problem because they’re better about putting the people in homes.

[nsonha]

Australian Medicare almost covers nothing, I've always used private healthcare for things like dental and optical. It's a system designed to help people who are unable to afford private healthcare, which I have no problem with.

[threeseed]

Dentists are covered by Medicare and are basically free (bulk billed).

And Sydney doesn't really have a housing crisis anymore than Manhattan does. It's just that people want to live inner city without having to pay for it. You can find plenty of reasonably priced property if you go further out.

[robbiep]

I’m not sure if you’re thinking of somewhere else, but Medicare does not cover dentistry - some health services have dentistry but it basically takes care of those who are having poor Health outcomes due to poor dentition (my housemate at Med school was studying dentistry and used to do a couple days out at westmead a week drilling on these people).

[hnick]

IIRC dentistry is only covered in fringe cases for health related reasons i.e. you need this done or you will get very sick or die. Also under some concession schemes. Otherwise, regular check ups, cleaning, fillings, and basic extractions are not covered at all for the general population.

[shric]

AU FAANG pay for health insurance too.

[astrange]

I was actually just looking at this and our benefits in AU seem to be A$3000 a year allowance towards a private plan. That doesn't seem like a lot, but maybe it's enough.

[shric]

Agree with parent completely. Also, maybe this is a rationalisation for not moving to SV but our software dev salaries are more than enough to live a very comfortable lifestyle. Sure, we're not going to retire in 5 years and cruise around on our yachts, but if you're beyond chasing material goods for status then living and working in Sydney in this industry is pretty great.

[killtimeatwork]

> Apart from Sydney having almost perfect weather and being one of the most stunning cities in the world there are the political aspects.

The first thing that comes to mind of many people when thinking about Australia: what about the scary snakes and spiders? How many encounters will I have with them while living in Sydney 'burbs and is it more than zero? What is the chance of randomly waking up with a giant spider on my face?

[ZephyrBlu]

What's the tech scene like in aussie? It's very sad in NZ and I'm pretty keen to move somewhere where there's a larger local community.

[shric]

In Sydney It's generally fine to arrive at 9 and leave at 5 as long as you produce reasonable output. In SV I noticed almost everyone worked way over 40 hours per week, overtime was the expectation and the norm.

I would assume this is not across all teams in all cases, just my first hand experience and also second hand anecdotes from colleagues.

[ZephyrBlu]

Interesting. I would have thought things at Google would be relatively chill. People on /r/cscareerquestions who work at FAANG usually say they work less than 40hrs a week.

[shric]

Maybe it's chill compared to other FAANG. I hear horror stories from Googlers in Seattle that are ex Amazon

[flukus]

I would be shocked if that sub wasn't thoroughly astro-turfed. The constant influx of new devs and repetitive questions, the relative lack of experienced devs and the potentially large payoff make it the ideal breeding ground for manipulation.

[ZephyrBlu]

There are quite a few regulars, and funnily enough most people on the sub are quick to call out possible astro-turfing. It seems unlikely that it's thoroughly astro-turfed.

[emdowling]

Couldn’t agree with this post more. I left Australia 6 years ago and work for a FAANG earning 5x-7x in London than I would in Australia as a PM.

Most Australian tech companies are mundane and boring. They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good.

[InvertedRhodium]

> They lack ambition because the base quality of life is just so damn good.

Do you really see this as a negative?

[shric]

This, and Google in Sydney vs London for the same role certainly does not pay 5-7x. Sydney L5 SWE is around 300-350K AUD total comp. If an L5 SWE in London gets 1.5M I'll eat my hat :)

[jay_kyburz]

Do you know how much of that comp is actual cash and super?

[hobos_delight]

TC (total comp) does not include super - it's made up of base, stock and bonus. It allows you to somewhat compare against sites.

[smabie]

Well, I see some of my friends who just chill and make 400k for some FAANG and living pretty sad and pathetic lives. They are content with mediocrity. They have good jobs and make good money but will never earn great money and will never have great jobs. However, they are happy and content, which is more than I can say.

But then, sometimes I think I am the sad one, because I always want more and will never be happy with anything I have.

I've meet people who totally agree with my mindset and those that agree with my friends mindset, it really does seem to be a fundamental difference among people.

[nightowl_games]

Saying 400K isn't great money is indicative of the massive wealth that the tech bubble has. Y'all are priveledged. I can't wait for remote work to spread those salaries across the globe. I will out work your friend for less that half that price. And I know countless more like me.

[smabie]

Yeah you probably will. There's no doubt about that.

[tolbish]

What makes their lives sad and pathetic to you? What do you do that is so interesting?

[frongpik]

I'd say you're chasing mirages and building sandcastles and look down upon the lazy neighbors who just watch the sunset.

[alfiedotwtf]

Every time I have a friend chasing money rather than happiness, I send them this...

https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...

[InvertedRhodium]

> But then, sometimes I think I am the sad one, because I always want more and will never be happy with anything I have.

I can relate to the concept and have to work hard on taking time to appreciate what I have - I call that mindset 'inherent dissatisfaction' and personally found it poisonous, but realise that's probably not the case for everyone.

[justatdotin]

'happy and content' <> 'sad and pathetic'

[emdowling]

Not at all. I see it as a great thing! But I love London, and actually enjoy being career-focused right now. It satisfies me in a way that Australia did not. I definitely plan to move back in 6-7 years, and will be in a strong financial position when I do. Win-win.

[yoz-y]

I guess if you plan to retire early and come back then earning a lot of money makes sense. Personally, the comments make me rather want to relocate to Australia.

[emdowling]

This is exactly my plan. Another 6-7 years in London, then back to Australia. I love London and my life here - I’ll be able to move back to Australia when I’m 40, have a high quality of life and be in a strong financial position relative to my peers.

[tac0_]

Melbourne based here and definitely agree with this. It's pretty hard to find a startup that's working on cutting edge stuff. Lack of VC funding here also doesn't help. The only thing Australians want to sink money into is real estate.

[haihaibye]

That's not really fair, they are also interested in banking and mining.

[tac0_]

ahhh yup of course. Also chuck in some BNPL stocks into the mix now as well.

[ehnto]

At first I wanted to disagree as I have worked on some pretty awesome stuff and for work at least, I would rather work here than the US. That moderate economic landscape you mention is the reason working on software is so reasonable here. No ridiculous hours, sensible but good pay and a lot of mature technology choices since risk is avoided or at least calculated first.

As an average entrepreneur you are incentivised to play it safe by bootstrapping into existing industries, and because our market is so small the potential for hockey stick growth isn't there so investment isn't an attractive option either.

So I think you raise some good points but they may be aimed at people interested in the fast paced investment fueled software industries, and there are plenty of entrepreneurs and developers who much rather the moderate and grounded pace Australia offers.

I also agree that we have a lot of latent opportunities that can't be realised in that same environment, we are at an apex of cost and availability that makes it really difficult to pull off big risky projects so that leaves a lot of opportunity on the table.

[InvertedRhodium]

> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use.

What's the definition of 'good use' here?

I've had plenty of offers to go work in the US but have always chosen to remain closer to my family and maintain an enjoyable work/life balance while still being able to travel internationally for projects as required.

I'd consider that an excellent use of my skills, though I admit a certain amount of bias.

[justatdotin]

> good use

uber, but for dogs

[InvertedRhodium]

Hot Dog

Not Hot Dog

[girvo]

> Most of them who stay put in Australia never really get to put their skills to good use.

I'm curious what you mean by this, and didn't get a full picture from the sentences afterwards.

I might not work in B2C "world changing" stuff, but the work I have done over the past decade runs infrastructure that the actual world is changed by. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, which is likely.

Edit: Well, I guess I said something wrong. Disparaging an entire country's developers as "never really getting to put their skills to good use" is acceptable, but pointing out that that simply isn't the case universally, and being proud of the work I've done isn't.

[niceairport]

I've had the pleasure of working with an Australian consulting firm - Industrie & Co.

Great people and great experience overall.

[mauritzio]

Maybe boring things don't attract so many bad programmers, that statistics are getting messed up.