> Our opponent’s true target is not Richard Stallman; their real aim is to destroy the FSF by thoroughly infiltrating it (like they already have with organisations like the OSI and Linux Foundation). These people even started an online petition calling for RMS’s forceful removal and for the entire board of directors at the FSF to resign from their posts.
So, you're either forced to defend Richard Stallman and accept what's going on over there, or __YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL OPEN SOURCE__.
Your comment breaks several of the site guidelines. Would you mind reviewing them and sticking to the rules? This is exactly the kind of thing they ask you not to post here.
Everyone needs to follow the rules regardless of: (1) how right they are; (2) how right they feel they are; (3) how wrong someone is; (4) how wrong they feel someone is; and/or (5) how provocative something was.
> So, you're either forced to defend Richard Stallman and accept what's going on over there, or __YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL OPEN SOURCE__.
Firstly Free software != open source, so you probably meant free software in your original quote.
Secondly, while there may be people who have legitimate concerns about RMS, the authors of the open letter have chosen not to highlight these claims but rather to rely on mischaracterisations and easily debunked lies. By supporting the open letter you are supporting these lies and thereby supporting an attack on free software.
Maybe this is not the most productive characterisation of the situation, but the creators of the open letter were the ones that chose this framing by choosing to propagate such falsehoods. We must stand up against such disingenuous actions, and can view them as none other than some kind of motivated attack on Free software.
You are not forced to defend him, in fact Leah calls some of Stallman's statements "idiotic" herself.
But she is intellectually mature enough to see that most humans have had 5 stupid views over 30 years, and Stallman was just honest enough to write them down.
You don't need to defend the views (some of which have already been retracted), but you have to accept Stallman as flawed human being.
Stallman is currently still the only candidate who is uncompromising enough to drag the technological Overton Window in a good direction.
So I don't think the article is trash at all, it is a refreshing, honest, bold take on the current elephant in the room: Corporate influence on free software.
> You don't need to defend the views (some of which have already been retracted), but you have to accept Stallman as flawed human being.
This (the holding on to his views of 15 years ago, which he has since come to understand are wrong) is a major issue in the modern world IMHO.
That's not to defend Stallman's more recent gaffes, or even those older ones. But it raises a question - we know people can learn, grow and change. At what point does society start to accept that something said online in the past is no longer representative of the living person?
Because if it's "never", we appear to be gearing up for a future where politicians can only be people who have never set a single rhetorical foot wrong, and have been on-message since the day they came of age. And that scares me because such people are probably psychopaths or puritans.
> But it raises a question - we know people can learn, grow and change
I think we are starting to learn this. I believe this at my core because I've observed myself and others, but when I feel some type of way it's not always the first idea in my mind.
I hope I never become famous, because someone will surely trawl through my 25 year old USENET posts and probably find something to hang me with. Probably something that was benign and harmless back in the 90’s but now offensive.
I wonder what future discussion-archaeologists will find 25 years from now in our HN posts that by 2046 becomes offensive!
I mean, the OSI is filled with people who work for proprietary companies, and open source was made to make free software enterprise.
And the Linux Foundation has a bunch of people from companies that also promote largely proprietary technologies...
So...yeah. The FSF is the last beacon of morality here, in its own strange, beady-eyed way.
I'm not a huge fan of Stallman, myself (I have had many arguments with him), but the people opposing him are pretty awful people largely pushing proprietary software, actually.
> I mean, the OSI is filled with people who work for proprietary companies
So is GNU, though. For instance, https://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html identifies the affiliations of most of the GCC steering committee, and they're generally proprietary companies. (Several work for Red Hat, a subsidiary of IBM.)
Also, if we're going to claim that working for a proprietary-software company means you're not a member of the free software movement, the movement is very small indeed.
> and open source was made to make free software enterprise.
That may be the case, but the FSF has a long history of saying that you can work on free software for profit, too. Frankly, that's why the FSF exists separate from the GNU project - to be a place that you can order physical media with GNU software from and expense it.
> but the people opposing him are pretty awful people largely pushing proprietary software, actually
This is untrue of the authors of the open letter - you should look at their stated positions on free and proprietary software. (It might be true of some of the signatories, of course.)
> So is GNU, though. For instance, https://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html identifies the affiliations of most of the GCC steering committee, and they're generally proprietary companies. (Several work for Red Hat, a subsidiary of IBM.)
Red Hat releases most things under free licenses and as far as I know everyone on the GCC steering committee from Red Hat was there pre-acquisition. That said, I don't love the GCC steering committee for many reasons (many of which admittedly were before most of their appointments). You are right, though, that much of the steering committee for GCC isn't pro-freedom as much as it is pro-convenience (and in the case of SiFive, is a very proprietary company).
...also, the GCC steering committee isn't representative of all of GNU.
> Also, if we're going to claim that working for a proprietary-software company means you're not a member of the free software movement, the movement is very small indeed.
This is true! I wouldn't say working for one excludes you (though it kind of does), but I would say working for one is incompatible with leading the free software movement or having moral ground to coup it.
> That may be the case, but the FSF has a long history of saying that you can work on free software for profit, too.
You can! It really is wonderful. Nothing I said conflicts, there.
> Frankly, that's why the FSF exists separate from the GNU project - to be a place that you can order physical media with GNU software from and expense it.
Half-truth, but close enough. Again, this doesn't conflict with anything I said.
> This is untrue of the authors of the open letter - you should look at their stated positions on free and proprietary software. (It might be true of some of the signatories, of course.)
That isn't actually true for all of the authors; one I can recall offhand, Garrett works for a company making proprietary software of the worst kind: the type that can kill people. And that's on top of a long history of opinions far more controversial than anything Stallman has been accused of, let alone done (the guy mocked a man who the UN has admitted was being tortured, for example).
My point here is that you can always pick a partitioning and then backsolve ethical principles that support that partitioning. "If you work for a company that sells proprietary software, you're ineligible to be a leading voice in the free software movement" has never been a principle - otherwise IBM and Google would never have had a seat. "If you work for a company that makes software that can kill people, your ethics don't line up with ours" hasn't been a principle either - RMS in fact has advocated for multiple militaries to use free software, see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed... . (Garrett's employer, for what it's worth, makes software that kills people when it breaks, i.e., the better he does his job, the fewer people die. I don't think it's easy to claim that about a military!)
The only real established standard is that you advocate that free software is a matter of ethics/morality/liberty and not simply one of convenience, and as far as I can tell, all the coauthors do so.
Thanks for pointing this out, I had forgotten this! Yeah, Red Hat has been rotten for a long time. I don't like it; I think it's been a terrible company for many years; but I do think it's never released non-free software, which was the bit I am mostly concerned about on this particular topic.
I do agree that they have no real moral ground to stand on. Forgive me for pointing this out, but given they're one of the organizations that signed the letter... (Though they sort of have more casus belli to than most that signed the letter.)
Seriously, though, thank you for pointing this out! I really genuinely appreciate it (and also appreciate that you're civil here).
Ah, you stealth-edited; give me a second to read that one.
> otherwise IBM and Google would never have had a seat.
Google has never had a seat at anything other than OSI, and IBM only purchased one.
> "If you work for a company that makes software that can kill people, your ethics don't line up with ours" hasn't been a principle either -
Obviously didn't claim this. I pointed out Garrett worked for a proprietary software company that made proprietary software that kills people. Specifically, I noted that this was worse than normal proprietary software, because if you're going to have the lives of others in your hands, they should at least know the rulebook you're playing by.
> RMS in fact has advocated for multiple militaries to use free software
This is consistent with everything else I've said. I personally dislike militarized forces to the point of being skeptical of most veterans, but proprietary software doesn't make sense for a military any more than using American bombs would make sense for North Korea.
It absolutely does not, and this has been understood throughout my entire time contributing to free software and participating in the movement. You can't just create purity tests for free software as a convenient way to demonize people when there's literally decades of core contributors and champions who'd then fall in this brand new exclusion zone.
It's hardly an arbitrary purity test; if you see proprietary software as immoral, and the free software movement as a moral movement, then people who release proprietary software aren't part of the free software movement. This has been the case since the ideological genesis of the movement.
You seem to be arguing in favor of the open source movement, which is a distinct one, with far different goals (rather than being a moral movement based around liberation, it's a movement based around profiteering free software).
"Our opponents wish to destroy Free Software" in massive text without highlighting any of the legitimate, less presumptive grievances with Stallman's behavior seems to be a 1:1 drop in.
Or are you concerned about their usage of open source in place of free software? They quite plainly state principles which are also shared with the open source movement are what they're defending, even not accounting for their colloquial synonyminity.
>Does not in any way imply that people not defending RMS wish to destroy Free Software.
From the statement it is understood that you are defending free software by defending Stallman, and those attacking Stallman are attacking free software.
At best this is hyperbolic, abrasive language that makes bystanders at least complacent as the destruction of free software happens by some "Orwellian" conspiracy. Their statement is perhaps even less hyperbolic than the original writer - which I question why'd you examine the commentator with such scrutiny given the hysteria in the article.
They plainly state their irrational opinion that the resignation was the result of a smear campaign by anti-open-source entities and even list them.
That's just hysterical garbage. RMS did this to himself by being an abrasive asshole and failing to curb his autistic tendencies. As a major thought leader, he ought to know better.
> RMS did this to himself by being an abrasive asshole
So what? Steve Jobs was celebrated while he shat on people left and right and even denied his own daughter's claims that he's her father for years. Elon Musk publicly called someone else a pedophile and hired specialists(which turned out to be scammers) to dig up dirt against that person. Linus Torvalds is known for being rather unfriendly to a lot of people, yet I haven't seen an open letter against him after he said "Nvidia, fuck you" in front of the camera.
The world is full of assholes. If I have to choose I'll take the one who actually stood for something and gets his claims confirmed more every year rather than another corporate dude whose main skill is hiding that he's the same kind of asshole, just in a more backstabby kind of way.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think RMS is a good choice in any leadership position. However I don't understand the magnitude of the current outrage and don't think it's fully rational. Furthermore, I think without his uncompromising attitude towards Free Software the FSF would not be what it is now.
Linus faced the fallout of his communication style recently.
Musk is far from universally admired, many-many people think he is a piece of shit for how he handles his employees, how he overworked the Tesla factory staff to meet idiotic production quotas, how he throw a hissy fit when CA mandated closing non-essential workplaces (so Tesla factories) due to COVID, etc., etc.
RMS consistently pushed himself on vulnerable women on campus.
Are these comparable? Sure, on some level.
Is the FSF better off without him? Well, who knows, but many people seem to think that the answer is a clear yes.
> ...don't understand the magnitude of the current outrage and don't think it's fully rational.
That's a perfectly reasonable position. However, it also implies that you would not conclude it's a plot against free software like that zany OP article does.
Torvalds never got in trouble for the NVIDIA outrage because that was just rage against a particular corporate entity. No one got hurt or personally offended by that. He DID get in trouble for being awful and abusive to contributors in the linux community-- that WAS personal and he paid a price for it after getting away with it for a long time.
RMS also has a LONG history of being a vile personality and it finally caught up with him. Again, he should have known better. His role was as a spokesperson, get GETS PAID for that as a living. There really is no excuse.
I don't know about Musk or Jobs. They had other roles besides being a spokesperson. Perhaps they got their comeuppance coming eventually (or posthumously).
> RMS did this to himself by being an abrasive asshole
This seems the actual main issue that got the anti-RMS petition going. (Even the article most in favour of him that I saw, called him by far the most disagreeable person they'd ever met!)
I don't seem to remember this was mentioned in the anti-RMS petition though. Rather, it consisted of a string of claims, which, when you looked into them, were untrue. Flinging mud instead of dealing with the actual problem. That seems unfortunate. As if because they liked the end, the means didn't matter–as if behaving ethically doesn't matter. Well, maybe the people who signed didn't look into those claims, just believed them in good faith. That faith seems unwarranted.
I do not see the phrase "abrassive asshole" or something similar in the open letter though. I see "misogynist", "transphobe", "ableist". He is clearly not any of these things, so the open letter is indeed a hastily put together piece of garbage. They should be ashamed of themselves.
This isn't true. Many signatories of the anti-Stallman letter are known, smooth careerists who have been climbing the OSS corporate ladder for the last decade.
The don't care about the actual issues at all, otherwise they'd sign anti-Clinton and anti-Gates letters.
Which they won't, because their careers would suffer.
> These people even started an online petition calling for RMS’s forceful removal and for the entire board of directors at the FSF to resign from their posts
By reinstating Stallman the board created this controversy and deliberately sabotaged the FSF's mission of defending Free Software. It's ludicrous to imagine they didn't know what the consequences would be.
Yeah, just now reading the individuals in the petition list, so many are contributors of GPL projects.
If the goal was to defend or strengthen the free software movement, then turning every conversation about the subject into a purity test on the founder's actions instead of on, well, free software seems to run counter to that goal.
And given the return announcement happened at the end of Libre planet without any of their organizers being aware beforehand, which FSF clarified as such afterwards, it telegraphs their awareness that it would be a controversy.
I prefer to think of it as the political style you find in European countries with the parliamentary system. You have to form coalitions. The "pure" FSF position is like an ideological pole that some people are closer to than others. When this system functions properly, there is more room for nuance and shades of grey.
Of course the danger is that we end up like Israel. They keep re-electing the same guy who is incapable of forming anything, but no one knows who the successor would be or even how such a person would operate in the current climate.
I know a lot of people that defend RMS and fully agreed with OP. I know a lot of people who don't care that much. As for your final conclusion that "if not you're enemy" I don't fully agreed with. You can be indifferent too. Not a single person that dislike RMS I know of can prove that he committed a crime. The dislikes are purely based on opinionated statements which is part and parcel of free speech. Showed me he committed something bad rather than "oh my feeling hurt because he said something not nice so he must be purged". I classified these kind of outraged people as snowflakes. Yeah, what a load of trash flakes.
People are multi faceted and the world is gray. One cannot undermine ones contributions to computer science for the sake of PC culture or aggreing to the popular opinion. People voted for trump should we hate those people or just disagree with their views? Popular opinion isnt the arbitor of truth!
Yup! You cannot have the FSF without free speech. Creating petitions to excommunicate RMS & other supporters just does not jive with the organisation's founding principles. I'm not going to defend Stallman's comments - they are extremely dubious at best - but I do not agree with trying to bully him out of the movement he helped build.
If he really is problematic, you can just 'fork' off and create your own FSF equivalent.
Free speech never implied freedom from consequences though - this isn't the government suppressing RMS, it's people reacting to his free speech and deciding that they don't like it.
> Free speech never implied freedom from consequences though - this isn't the government suppressing RMS, it's people reacting to his free speech and deciding that they don't like it.
Good point - looking at the petitions, it's become obvious that the people deciding they don't like RMS's speeach are in the minority.
Is it worth firing an entire board because a minority feels insecure?
On your mind, is tyranny by the minority better than tyranny by the majority?
...just because it's a minority doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. At the risk of the ghost of Godwin's, black people were a minority in the 1960s, yet still had a good point about their aims.
And as for whether or not the board chooses to listen to the feedback, entirely up to them and their governance structure.
This argument is full of equivocation. The consequences of speech are exactly what is being debated. An exchange of ideas, then yes. Censorship by the mob (instead of government), then no.
No, freedom of speech really does imply some protections, such as not getting instantly fired or jailed for your opinions.
As another commenter pointed out, the fact we are having a debate on the subject is the correct way to resolve this situation and decide if RMS should continue to represent the FSF. The larger issue is a tiny minority have decided it is unacceptable to have this conversation and he must go ASAP.
> the fact we are having a debate on the subject is the correct way to resolve this situation and decide if RMS should continue to represent the FSF.
Was there a debate over whether Stallman should have been brought back onto the board of directors? No. Nor was there a vote. It just happened. But I guess democracy doesn't matter when it's the divine right of kings?
If people can't contribute because they are being preyed upon and abused in the community, and the leadership sees no issue with that, they can't contribute and so they are excluded.
If he isn't willing to defend those people, it isn't about his free speech, it is about his inability to do the job and willingness to let others be silenced.
The writeup begins, "known Thought Criminal Richard M Stallman was falsely accused". So, it immediately implies, using sarcasm, that there is not another potentially valid opinion on this topic, and makes sure anybody with another opinion feels antagonized. I'm not defending any articles with an opposite position - I'm just criticizing this writeup.
Any article that just dismisses the issues with Stallman as a smear and tells you not to listen to them without showing why they are wrong instantly seems to have little intent to engage on the facts.
This reads like an absurd conspiracy theory. Stallman had some good ideas about software, it doesn't mean he doesn't have bad ideas about other things (like consent), and if so we should continue to pursue the good ideas and throw out the bad.
No individual is FOSS software, and equating the two is foolish at best.
Show me the text where he has a bad idea about consent. And then show me how his statements are false.
I guess you refer to this text:
On MIT's internal Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (CSAIL) listerv, Stallman had seen the description of a protest of Marvin Minsky which said Minsky was "accused of assaulting" one of Epstein's victims. Stallman argued that "the most plausible scenario" is that "she presented herself to him as entirely willing" -- even if she was coerced by Epstein into doing so -- whereas the phrase "assaulting" implies the use of force or violence, faciliating what he calls "accusation inflation... Whatever conduct you want to criticize, you should describe it with a specific term that avoids moral vagueness about the nature of the criticism."
So please explain to me how this statement is false.
Statutory rape law is a trade-off because proving sexual assault is hard and we value protecting children from abusers more than we value letting people sleep with children. If you disagree with that, yes, I believe you are not suitable to hold a leadership position at any organisation that needs to protect it's contributors, some of whom will be children.
First of all a "child" is defined as the age between birth and puberty, so you might want to update your own usage of that word.
Secondly, the bigger part of the world seems to agree nowadays that 16 seems to be a reasonable age of consent.
US is very conservative in this regards, depending on the state. So basically it's OK that a 50 year old has sex with a 16 year old in 1 state, but when you cross the state border, two 17 year olds having sex is illegal.
So you claim that a person pointing out these absurdities should not be allowed in a leadership position?
Sure, replace the word "child" with "minor" or whatever, I'm not a lawyer here, it's clear what I mean from context.
The point is that once the rules are set, you follow them because to do otherwise means either you are an abuser, or you are willing to do things that are indistinguishable from an abuser, giving them cover and breaking the rules that are designed to protect minors. Either way, you are endangering minors.
Stallman didn't just talk about the numbers being different in different places and the issues with that, he talked about a specific case where someone had done this in a place where it was illegal, and claimed that it could have been OK.
There is no room for that if you want a leadership position where you need to protect those people, it endangers them by refusing to always hold those who break the rules accountable.
As a leader you indeed need to protect people, and when someone is accused of "assault", I think it's OK to put things in perspective. He gave a clear objective description of the situation, and nobody can claim his observations were wrong. Remember that the accusation was "assault", and I agree with Stallman that this was too harsh given the circumstances.
I want my leaders to stand up for reality. If you prefer your leaders to be "think about the children", then that's up to you.
Well, my point was that this article actively avoids answering that question.
From what I can see, yes, he does. He seems to take the position that children should be able consent to sex with adults, which fundamentally makes contributors less safe, and in my opinion is worthy of removing him from positions of leadership.
> Due to the vagueness of the term "sexual assault" together with the dishonest law that labels sex with adolescents as "rape" even if they are willing, we cannot tell from this article what sort of acts Maraj was found to have committed. So we can't begin to judge whether those acts were wrong.
> I see at least three possibilities. Perhaps those acts really constituted rape — it is a possibility. Or perhaps the two had sex willingly, but her parents freaked out and demanded prosecution. Or, intermediate between those two, perhaps he pressured her into having sex, or got her drunk.
It is fundamentally dangerous to offer abusers the opportunity to claim it was all willing, which is why the law makes it always rape. If you choose to break that law, that's on you and you deserve to be treated as an abuser.
This position of regarding the ability to sleep with under-aged people as more important than defending under-aged people from abusers is one incompatible with keeping a community safe, in my opinion.
> Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it.
> Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.
I contributed to plenty of open source projects as a minor, interacting with maintainers and other people in the communities around them.
Grooming and abuse is a real problem. If Stallman thinks it can be justified to sleep with a child if consent is given, then he wouldn't act to defend a child in that situation if they were being preyed upon unless it was clear to him it was abuse.
That's not good enough. There should be no wiggle room because abusers can abuse that. That's why these laws exist, and that is the standard we should hold projects to, to allow children to safely contribute.
Why would Stallman, personally, be in a position where he's the only one who can defend a child in that situation? Your hypothetical doesn't make any sense.
I wrote a proper response to this, then deleted it.
Because seriously, you're asking why a clear demonstration of how someone doesn't understand/is ignorant of power dynamics isn't a sign that person shouldn't be anywhere near positions of power and influence?
And maybe the explaining that needs to be done is yourself.
Five years ago, Leah Rowe published a hasty declaration on libreboot.org, announcing that, as a free software developer, she's boycotting the GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation after a transgender employee she personally knew was allegedly fired due to discrimination. [0] Later Rowe apologized, said it was a mistake for several reasons, mainly for accidentally revealing the identity of that employee, eventually the declaration was retracted [1] and it seems she decided to restore cooperation (e.g. speak at LibrePlanet on Libreboot, etc), although Libreboot was no longer a GNU project.
And this time Leah Rowe is the first person to publicly support the reinstatement of Richard Stallman, and now has published a declaration on libreboot.org again, this time announcing the support of Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation.
I wonder what really has happened to her in the meantime. I'm genuinely curious about what made Rowe to change her stance.
The inconsistency here is that Leah Rowe stopped the initial boycotting campaign before that campaign was able to make any change, it was pretty clear that the original intention was to refuse cooperation unless the FSF acknowledges and solves the problem in a satisfactory manner. But it never happened, AFAIK, to this day, that ex-employee in question is still highly critical of the FSF on its alleged mishandling of the issue.
Look, if you don't want his personal conduct to factor in, let's look at the percipidous decline in free software (and the rise of copyright BSD/MIT/Apache open source software).
Years ago, LLVM was offered to Stallman and the FSF. Due to the idiosyncratic way he chooses to handle his email, he never even got their message. As such: LLVM fell under a BSD-style license. Clang was built on top of it, also under a copyright license. This all culminated in giving Apple a much needed escape-hatch from GPL'd software.
This is critically important, as prior to Clang/LLVM, the only open source compiler with any real mind/market share among developers was GCC. The fact that this was poorly timed, right before a sort of cambrian explosion of PLT language interests as corporate culture shifted away from only tolerating code written in C++/Java. Modern languages started getting built outside of free software and mainstreamed into industry.
This is a critical setback for the movement. Stallman has stated, and I agree with this, that having a state-of-the-art compiler suite is central to the free software movement. GCC should have been that compiler, instead it's now Clang/LLVM.
Between the rise of a non-free developer ecosystem (of which clang and LLVM helped state), and the mismanagement of the GPL v2/v3 switch, you now have an entire generation of software developers (and a start of a new one IMO), who basically don't give a crap about free software or the GPL - it's just that annoying restrictive open source license made by that guy.
When we released our software under GNU GPL licenses, we didn't write rms to ask for his permission or blessing. We just did release it under the license we felt was best for our vision.
So if llvm was released under different license, this is fully on llvm author. They had reasons to release it under the license that fitted them best.
> The patch I'm working on is GPL licensed and copyright will be assigned to the FSF under the standard Apple copyright assignment. Initially, I intend to link the LLVM libraries in from the existing LLVM distribution, mainly to simplify my work. This code is licensed under a BSD-like license [8], and LLVM itself will not initially be assigned to the FSF. If people are seriously in favor of LLVM being a long-term part of GCC, I personally believe that the LLVM community would agree to assign the copyright of LLVM itself to the FSF and we can work through these details.
If your view is LLVM's licensing is irrelevant to the free software movement then perhaps you don't understand free software as much as you think.
> If your view is LLVM's licensing is irrelevant to the free software movement then perhaps you don't understand free software as much as you think.
Ah, I love the smell of the Straw Man argument in the morning. Please, don't do that in civilized discussions. I have never stated that LLVM is not Free Software.
Regarding the links you provided, it is irrelevant. If LLVM developers really had wanted to release the code under GNU GPL license, they would have done it. If they had wanted to transfer copyright to FSF, they would have done it. They didn't, and without a doubt they had more strong reasons than 'they didn't answer my email'.
I think that the use of the Apache license has more to do with Lattner's then employer, Apple. I can't recall any software by them ever released under GNU GPL license, and they are not known as friendly to GPL.
There are dozens of other gcc developers: Had they been eager to accept this offer, they'd have found ways to make Stallman see that email.
Where was the SC, who just had enough power to remove RMS, in this situation? Why aren't they to blame?
Most likely, as is always the case with large patches, no developer wanted to bother, because LLVM wasn't known yet.
But we are post-truth, and all failings of an organization are attributed to a single individual. Seems like the tradition of human sacrifices to cleanse a group is popular again.
That's interesting info, thanks for recounting that, but this letter is not about Stallman's merits as a manager, but about the arguably baseless public condemnation of his character.
RMS is a grown-up, he talked his way into this mess, he can talk his way out. Might involve compromise though, so good luck with that.
But seriously, it's on him to fix this. If he doesn't believe he needs to, then well, he can go sit with Brendan Eich in the "intelligent, but unwise" corner.
He funded a group trying to prevent homosexuals from having equal rights with everyone else. Regardless of your ethical views on the subject of homosexuals, it's wrong to try and prevent anyone from having freedom, especially in such an undemocratic way as throwing money at it.
Complete hogwash, but whatever. Stallman defenders would do well to not overstate his and the FSF's present (not historical) importance to the software community in addition to understating his views and the things he did.
Say what you will about the man personally, but his prescience with regards to the trends of industry and its attacks on personal freedom with regards to software and hardware have been very accurate, oftentimes decades ahead of when the effects are widely understood. His disconnection from average people can sometimes be explained because of how differently he thinks about things – usually in an absolutist sense, which is very alienating.
But his contributions to the software community, even if not directly through software commits, but through advocacy and ensuring the fundamental freedoms are preserved, are still being reaped to this day.
The same thing goes for the FSF, which, having been founded by him, has a similar worldview. It may not be pragmatic towards startups that want to profit from artificial digital scarcity, but those same startups and other businesses have profited immeasurable through FSF's defense of software freedoms.
Would the world really be better off if the Microsofts, Oracles, and others of their ilk still had the same grasp on the user experience of software? Neither Android, AWS, nor countless other staples of billions of peoples' lives and livelihoods would be a thing if not for the early and ongoing defense of software freedom that the FSF has provided.
What exactly did he do ? From what I've gathered he gave out cards which was basically an invitation to a date with him should anyone be interested, and he made a very ill-concieved statement regarding harm from children having sex with adults. A really stupid comment but hardly something that would warrant this kind of response, at least unless he doubled down on it.
The initial push that led to his resignation from the FSF board came down to some comments supporting Marvin Minsky, who was an associate of Jeffery Epstein. This, combined with anecdata about RMS having a history of crude and insensitive comments was too much for a lot of people.
Note that I'm not taking a side here, I'm mostly summarizing the below article:
Software that removes the freedoms of its users is a moral injustice and the FSF has always fought against such injustice. I don’t see how capitulating to lies to satisfy a witch hunt based on slander, and thereby perpetuate an injustice, would help strengthen FSF’s commitment to fighting against the injustice of proprietary software. If all it takes for the FSF to stand by injustice is a misinformation campaign and sufficient bad PR, then what happens when proprietary companies start applying the same tactics to free software? will the FSF step back again, to avoid accruing too much bad PR? Sometimes in life it is difficult to make the right decision, but we must do it nonetheless.
- Stallman is a divisive figure, with questionable opinions outside the realm of free software, opinions he published himself, willingly.
- He multiple times ignored the contributions of women, and did so after being corrected.
- Lots of women feel uncomfortable close to him due to his behavior. Some of that may be involuntary.
- The board reinstated him without an announcement, prior discussion involving the broader community. The announcement surprised everyone except the board and the host event had do clarify they were not part of it.
- He refuses to acknowledge how all these things damage the reputation of the FSF.
All this could be avoided by doing absolutely nothing. He resigned, after all.
Have you read the open letter? The points you list above are a lot more milquetoast than the "evidence" against RMS that was posted on the open letter - it performs such disingenuous actions as quoting statements that RMS has since retracted or changed, refusing to admit the fact that he has changed; mischaracterising his suggestion of alternative pronouns as a transphobic attack when in fact RMS has stated that he himself will respect people's personal pronouns; underplaying the vicious media attack that was launched against him.
While the claims you make in your comment might not be slander, the open letter is much less nuanced, and strays a lot closer to that line.
The point remains the FSF board would have better executed its mission of protecting the FSF by doing absolutely nothing. There was no desperate need to reinstate Stallman. Have they failed to produce any other leaders inside the organization that could take it and move it forward? Isn't there anyone else who could lead it? Stallman won't be able to front it forever and he already conveniently stepped aside. He's still the founder of the movement, and that he'll always be, but the noise he created for no good reason makes it clear he's unfit to lead this movement.
You don't seem to care if the anti-RMS petition was slander or not. Whether it was all true or all false. The person who wrote it also seems not to care. Why not?!
I read it and looked into its claims, and was very surprised that none of them seemed to actually be true. The people who signed it presumably took its truth on faith, like you seem to be doing. Either that or you and they don't care. Imagine for a second it was you being slandered in such a way. After totally transforming your field for the better, around the world!
> The list that attacks Richard has Microsoft, Google, OSI, Linux Foundation, Gnome Foundation and Ethical Source people on it! These people oppose Free Software ideologically
What ? The Linux Foundation ? It opposes Free Software ?
Did I misunderstand this sentence ?
The letter is a bit hot headed and other commentors here are too. He expands on his reasoning in the letter. The problem with many of these organizations is the huge influence that big tech have on them. Remember, not too long ago a Microsoft exec literally said that Linux is a cancer. Now they're changing their tune, but everyone still has vivid memories of their Embrace and Extinguish campaigns. Many people, especially those that were around at the time, feel uncomfortable when organizations like "OSI, Linux Foundation, Gnome Foundation" are increasingly coming under the power of that same big tech. I agree with the sentiment that there's something perverse in big tech having that kind of influence. It's like Amazon staffing the warehouse workers union.
>There was plenty of cancel culture against blacks and there was also A LOT of violence used against them when the black protested against it and against their treatment.
Would you characterize the violence used against minorities as ancient history or would you say it is still very relevant? Companies, like counties have the burden of their history to bare.
I would hope that Microsoft has changed but I for one would not trust them. Nor would I trust any other large company, they all have their own motives that sometimes align with Open Source but they can also change their stance. Notably Google has made moves to close source Android(2016, not sure how it played out)(https://fossbytes.com/google-making-closed-source-android-pr...)
The Linux Foundation, so Microsoft, Google, Intel, Amazon, Adobe etc.? Yeah, I'd say so. They don't have anything to do with Free Software and thus their opinion is irrelevant at best.
True, but I think there’s “cancel risk” (or whatever you call it) to IBM were RedHat to do something like sell software to ICE or whatever is an action that people boycott/campaign on.
People were threatening Microsoft because of GitHub’s actions.
I think it’s reasonable that a lawyer at IBM identified this area to message whatever is supposed to be right and talked with RedHat to coordinate signing or whatnot.
I think it’s weird that corporations make these kinds of moral/ethical statements.
It is the FSF's opinion that "open source" misses the point, and it's pretty self-serving for them to have that opinion, because they don't control the term .
The OSI has in recent years been an ardent defender of free software principles, holding fast to the Debian Free Software Guidelines despite corporate pressure to approve various licenses where the source is technically open but fundamental freedoms are gone.
And, importantly, these corporate interests care about labeling their software as "open source" but not about labeling it as "free software." The FSF would say these licenses aren't "free software," but the corporate interests don't want people to think about fundamental freedoms anyway, so they wouldn't mind. It's therefore very important that someone is out there saying that you can't be "open source" either without the fundamental freedoms, and the OSI has been doing exactly that.
The fact that the FSF does not recognize what the OSI is doing for free software and sticks by an essay from roughly 20 years ago consisting of their opinions about users of the term "open source" is evidence of the FSF's continuing leadership failure - the FSF has been completely irrelevant in the discussions about the SSPL etc., which are among the biggest practical threats to free software today, and not only do they not realize that there's a job to be done, they don't realize who's been doing it, either.
But even that decade-old essay has a very clear footnote:
> Lakhani and Wolf's paper on the motivation of free software developers says that a considerable fraction are motivated by the view that software should be free. This is despite the fact that they surveyed the developers on SourceForge, a site that does not support the view that this is an ethical issue.
That is, a lot of people believe in the ethical imperative that the FSF calls "free software," even if they don't themselves phrase it in a way that the FSF approves of.
> but the corporate interests don't want people to think about fundamental freedoms anyway, so they wouldn't mind. It's therefore very important that someone is out there saying that you can't be "open source" either without the fundamental freedoms, and the OSI has been doing exactly that.
The community should force the companies to do what we want, not what the companies prefer. We want that free software be called "free", because it makes people think about freedom. The OSI decided that what companies want is more important and most people now do not know about their freedoms.
In my opinion, FSF and Stallman are doing that by promoting the free software principles, sharing articles like I linked above. We probably need EFF to join this effort, too.
So one thing I'm noting here is that this letter has a heavy translation/international bent. Additionally, an extremely large portion of signers have Russian-language names, for example.
Anecdotally, nearly everyone I have ever talked to or worked with in FOSS software has signed the "opposes RMS" letter, and I can't find anyone I recall or have even heard of on this one. But of course, I mostly have worked with people in the English-speaking world.
Does this sort of suggest language or culture is where the divide on this issue might stand?
Slavic languages, and correspondingly their names, are common in dozens of countries besides Russia. You probably have a sizable minority of them in your own country.
The support letter is indeed more international and representative of the larger development community. I'd say this reflects well on rms, since he obviously has a wider support base. His opponents seem to represent a specific subculture that only exists in the West. If you're only surrounded by these types, then you might be the one in a bubble.
"Slavic" was the word I was looking for, thank you. I am definitely aware such names are common in a wide geographic area.
I do think there may be an untested theory on whether the support letter's wider base is because of a wider support for RMS, or because by internationalizing the letter in many languages, it did a better job reaching RMS supporters than the open letter did reaching RMS opposers who don't speak English.
Eastern Europe has no cancel culture: policing other people's thoughts is what they did in the Eastern bloc and no one wants a new incarnation of a Party or Comsomol cell secretary lecturing them about their behavior.
I'm fairly sure the "think of the children" type of reaction to the original email by RMS that launched the scandal is pretty US-centric, culturally speaking.
The semantic problem with terminology which he pointed out at that time also seems to be US-specific, more or less (not sure how common it is to use that turn of phrase in the UK, to be honest).
I was not, by any means, suggesting nobody who supports RMS is from any given country, merely that internationalization efforts on the support letter may have given it a larger reach, or possibly reflect cultural views not reflected by the open letter.
You want to know what will cause Free Software to die? It isn't RMS.
The other day I told someone I thought this whole reaction to RMS was stupid. I was instantly labeled as "one of them", and "enabling harmful behavior" and blocked.
This is nothing more than a witch hunt, guilt by association, McCarthyism. Ideological conformity -- march in lockstep with me, or you're the enemy.
That's just the activist philosophy. They believe in turning every workplace in a political battlefield and they will conspire to get all those who disagree with them, fired, and consequently take over the establishment.
Managers should take note to not hire these nutjobs.
Finally organizations showing their support. Although the number of individuals who defend RMS is already more than twice the people who are anti-RMS and still growing, its nice to see organizations joining to defend RMS.
It's in the linked letters of support FTFA. There is less support for firing RMS than there is for keeping him, even though the people signing the "keep" are face negative consequences or supporting the FSF's goals.
You mean hundreds of anonymous GitHub accounts or absolutely nobodies are risking something, as opposed to people who have proven track record of actually doing real work in the world of free software? Just wow.
Oh, wow. Maybe if you actually skimmed through the list of supporters you'd find that they're real people with real jobs strongly interested in FOSS from all around the world? Or are you, perhaps, a jingoistic xenophobe for whom only American opinions matter?
A bunch of 4chan kids signing a reactionary letter vs hundreds of respected names in the FOSS community.
One of these groups has a negative impact on society as a whole, the other are hundreds of respected people working for free or reduced pay to create FOSS software.
Exactly ! Do we need to bring moral to business or just appreciate his hard work ? I saw him in a conference in france and what I can say is this guy is the most devoted guy I ever saw on open source, semantic correctness and teaching ...
Usually people whom point that is a conspiracy against Free/Libre Software are dismissed as lunatics or fanatics. Because all FUD spread over the years by big corps like Microsoft and Google, developers are so anti-GNU and so anti-GPL that they firmly believe in nonsenses like GPL being a restrictive license so you should use MIT or another permissive license for your code so big corps can adopt it. Another nonsense is Free/Libre Software and Open Source Software are the same thing, but they aren't.
A permissive license like MIT allow companies to take your code and make it their code and then companies make millions with your code sharing nothing/zero/nada with you. Funding Open Source developers are a big problem the community struggle with and it is by design. GPL, on the other hand, doesn't allow companies to take over your code. If they want your code in their products because your code is valuable they need to pay you, the developer, or share the code with the community so everybody can monetize the code.
The big problem is that companies don't want to pay for what they use. And it is not only in the tech industry, it is everywhere. Companies want you paying them for stuff you use from them, but they don't want to pay you for the stuff they use from you. As someone already wrote here, Open Source is just free labor for big companies to make them money. It's time to stop being stupid. This attack on RMS as a person and all his flaws are bullshit. Everybody knows that the Tech Industry are full of people worse than RMS. Tech industry are full of CEOs, CFOs, CTOs, COOs, manager, <put your role here> that are sexists, racists, transphobics, misogynists and <put your word here> and yet there is no public campaign to remove them from their roles. The same companies that are promoting this campaign against RMS are the companies that don't hire women or black, asian, latin, trans people for leadership and executive roles and yet, no public campaign. Why? Everybody seems to have some shit to say about RMS but not about these companies? Do they pay your salary so they are allowed to screw everybody without your criticism? Why moral, ethics, social justice are applied to some but not to all?
This campaign has one goal, to use RMS flaws to cancel RMS and censor him. Am I saying he is perfect? No. Am I saying he is good? No, because I don't know him. I don't know if he is a good or a bad person, if he deserves his position as a leader in Free/Libre Software community, I don't know if he did something bad or outlaw. If he did, he should pay. But this is not an excuse for these companies that do not like him and are ideologically opposed to him to try silence him with this cancel culture.
> Everybody knows that the Tech Industry are full of people worse than RMS. Tech industry are full of CEOs, CFOs, CTOs, COOs, manager, <put your role here> that are sexists, racists, transphobics, misogynists and <put your word here> and yet there is no public campaign to remove them from their roles. The same companies that are promoting this campaign against RMS are the companies that don't hire women or black, asian, latin, trans people for leadership and executive roles and yet, no public campaign. Why?
Very, very true, if not characteristic of every industry high on power play. With bizarre rumours about personal lives of people in dotcom C-suites, we all know too well about, these people surely should've had people to poke before this.
They should try really.
P.S. RedHat is a very funny company name to hear in this context, especially given the exodus of women from the company, and its own work ethics scandal a few years ago.
So... pretty much vindicating the article posted a few days ago pointing out that FSF has descended into absurd paranoia where the criticism of one man's behaviour is an attack on the essence of freedom itself.
Stallman isn't perfect (and I don't agree with everything; anyways, nobody is perfect, and I am also not perfect), but he said many important and good things for computer programming freedom, and should have (like anyone) the freedom of speech.
They make many good points.
I agree "per/perse" isn't transphobic. However, what unfortunately many people think, "they" should not be used singular because it is plural. Actually, "you" is also plural, and a lot of people use it singular. Singular "they" is actually very old, it is nothing new. (Both words are grammatically plural, even if the meaning is singular, though. People have been confused about this too, and wrote "they is", even though it is supposed to be "they are", because it is grammatically plural. Actually, the same is true fo "you is" in the past; people argued about that too.) It is true that sometimes "they" is unclear, but that is also sometimes the case of "you" and other words, too. (However, also sometimes you do not want to distinguish plural/singular even if you have to do.)
Some people will always accuse the people of things in order to discredit them. These accusations are not always valid; that is why they will need an investigation (and in this case, they did write the investigation, as can be seen).
RMS, irrespective of your opinion of the figure, isn't young.
Will Big Tech devour the concept of Free Software and reduce pretty much everyone to mere product?
What good is the source code if the hardware and networks where that source code executes are reducing you do digital serfdom?
Do the Silicon Valley tech godz play the Emmanuel Goldstein card on the rest of the Free Software leadership until we all just shut up and love Big Brother?
I see the hatred of companies for the GPL as one of the main issues here. GCC was a thorn in the plans envisioned by companies to take advantage of FOSS. LLVM was a godsend and it allowed companies to spread the influence of their new software methodology: use the vast army of 'open source' coders as unpaid workers to enrich themselves. Free bug reporters, free testers, free code contributors. Companies can simply take and close the non-copyleft code, add some secret sauce and use it to augment their deplorable business practices like sucking up user information, like Google, or simply sell it and laugh all the way to the bank, like Nvidia.
I think we are currently experiencing the old EEE tactics in various ways. Embrace Linux, use it to build an ecosystem, extinguish it with non-copyleft Fuchsia. Embrace GCC, use it to build stuff, extinguish it with non-copyleft LLVM. Android is almost completely rid of GPL code at this point - the kernel is the main piece remaining. I wonder when programmers and hackers will wake up and see how their time and work are being usurped.
It has everything to do with free software in the sense that it's just application of the principles of the free software movement. rms wants information to be free because of his moral principles, and these same principles also apply to the world outside software. It's a whole thing.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Part of the issue here is that rms has published his current views to great length. The issue at hand is over interpretation, which rms has the consistency to not bother rewording things for your benefit if asked to clarify
Indeed. The point of communication is, well, to communicate.
If someone has communicated ambiguously and one asks for clarification, that's just regular communication protocol. If what is meant is that they communicated unambiguously and they shouldn't need to repeat themselves, then, well, the receiver's interpretation of what was said stands as what was intended to be said.
It’s not RMS’ duty to educate you, me and others or to reword things for our benefit.
I think it would be worse if he submitted to some struggle session and changed his posts to whatever language is approved for discussing Epstein/Minsky.
> It’s not RMS’ duty to educate you, me and others or to reword things for our benefit.
Sorry, but it is. He's the front figure of the FSF. He appears in conferences and speaks about and for the Free Software Foundation and the more broad FLOSS community. Making things clear is pretty much his only job.
I disagree. He does what he wants, we listen or don’t. I think he’s trying to increase use of FLOSS and nothing else.
We can have preferences for what he should do, but he’s unlikely to do them. And I don’t get upset because he’s not doing what I want him to do.
Many technical thought leaders are “bad speakers” but that’s ok with me because tech concepts are hard and I’d rather have a bad speaker with a good idea than a good speaker with a bad idea.
I can always view source to figure it out.
I think it’s a false dichotomy that people must be perfect in every way to do something as simple as talk about how he wrote emacs at a conference. We take what we can get and the author of emacs is not very charismatic. That’s ok, I want to learn about emacs.
Trying to remember (a very long time passed), he was very kind and patiently told me that it's important to use the tool that works best for you. He added that for obvious reasons he uses emacs.
I don't take her seriously anymore, anyway. Yesterday it was "war on the FSF/RMS", today it's "defend FSF/RMS". Tomorrow? Guess it depends if she has a good day or a bad day.
I was thinking the same thing; I can understand that opinions might be polarized, or that for some, this is a controversial topic, but why flag any post in support of Stallman? Are posts critical of Stallman also flagged?
> Despite the name, Ethical Source licenses are in fact non-free because they put restrictions on usage of the software; if the author of such software disagrees with your political views, they can ban you from using the software.
That strikes me as a weird distinction for somebody who supports copyleft to make. Is the difference that the political view that copyleft licenses support is limited to the issue of redistribution and modification of code?
Edit: I follow the author's reasoning now - they're using "non-free" in the Four Fundamental Software Freedoms technical sense.
The GPL does put restriction on use. If you make modification to the code and do not share those modifications, you are constrained from using the code you modified.
And those constraints are for political reasons. The Four Freedoms are a political ideology about how software, developers, and users should morally interact, and the GPL exists as a legal tool to support this political ideology.
Edit: clarification - by "use" here, I'm including "bundle it into a black box of hardware and sell that hardware."
No, it does not. It places restrictions on redistribution, not on use. You can use it no matter who or what you are.
> If you make modification to the code and do not share those modifications, you are constrained from using the code you modified.
Incorrect. You can modify and use it to your hearts content. You are only required to share your modifications source if you distribute the modified software.
That's wrong. It's only if you distribute the software you modified that you need to share those modifications. If you dont distribute it, you can use it without any restriction at all.
> The GPL does put restriction on use. If you make modification to the code and do not share those modifications, you are constrained from using the code you modified.
This is is only true if you consider distribution as part of "use". You're fully entitled to privately run modified GPL code, even as a server or whatevs if it's not AGPL.
You are mistaking open source with free software. You can put as many restrictions as you want and still have open source. Open source just means you provide source with your product.
This is a war and the public is losing. On hand is the technocracy + the established politicians and the other hand are the citizens. They want (and sadly they are being successful) to transform Internet and the software industry in general in a walled-garden, corporate-friendly,sanitized, heavily controlled world, where the things allowed to be discussed are those deemed inconsequential for the people in power and anything challenging the status-quo or even just plain marginal or weird (in any fashion that the people in power do not like) will be at best totally marginalized and at worst outright censored.Our "free world" will be a bland, we-are-all-the-same,walking-on-eggshells, boring,unoriginal dystopia.
Very strange how many posts from certain users here, like they’ve devoted a lot of themselves to the crusade against RMS. How could it be so important to these people? It seems like there’s some ulterior motive, just based on how many anti-rms posts from specific users.
> Our opponents wish to destroy Free Software
> Our opponent’s true target is not Richard Stallman; their real aim is to destroy the FSF by thoroughly infiltrating it (like they already have with organisations like the OSI and Linux Foundation). These people even started an online petition calling for RMS’s forceful removal and for the entire board of directors at the FSF to resign from their posts.
So, you're either forced to defend Richard Stallman and accept what's going on over there, or __YOU ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL OPEN SOURCE__.
What a load of trash.