Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by k_sze 1909 days ago
I live in HK. 1.7M-2M is a really large exaggeration.
3 comments

It is not an exaggeration. I was there, joining several protests including the CHRF 2M protest. In addition, the police estimates is always wrong (of course they want the numbers to be as low as possible). One example was a protest around Victoria Park. According to “official police figures” it was 180k attending - but they only counted the people in the limited Victoria Park square, it was completely PACKED. They didn’t count the hundreds of thousands of people outside the square who couldn’t fit in, they also didn’t count the people stuck in the MTR next to the park, who couldn’t even fit on the streets. The “official police statistics” is always off by a magnitude of x.
I was also there, but in my opinion 1.7M was an exaggeration. Don’t get me wrong, there were A LOT of people, the whole area from Victoria Park to Tamar Park was packed with people. There was also a constant flow of people coming in from North Point, a good 20 minute walk to the starting point.

Police estimates were definitely wrong, but the estimates from organisers are also always exaggerated, for the same reasons you mentioned the police estimates are wrong.

What is your estimate, and how did you measure it?

I live in Paris where most of French demonstrations take place (including the yellow vest movement) but I can't pretend to have better estimates than all local and global media sources and public observers.

Historically, HK protestors grossly over exaggerate for optics, but MSM usually endorses organizer headcount uncritically. Reality consistently closer to police (under)estimates. Professionals at crowd control are better at estimating crowd sizes. Study from HKU of pre 2019 protests:

https://graphics.reuters.com/HONGKONG-EXTRADITION-PROTESTS/0...

Another analysis with machine learning, about 1/2 protestor estimates.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/07/03/world/asia/ho...

And another, estimates protesters had to occupy 18 miles of streets to pack 1M protestors, actual protests occupied 1 mile. Acknowledges not exact science, but leans towards conservative estimate of 250k... incidentally close to police estimates.

https://www.cjr.org/analysis/how-many-marched-protests-hong-...

IMO just average protestor and police reports for ball park figure.

The articles you are referring to doesn’t show the full picture. In all protests only a part of the crowd is visible on the streets, the majority of the day is spent trying to get up to the streets from the MTR.
HKU has 15 years of data points on HK protests. There is reliable pattern of protestor organizers significantly overestimating and police mildly underestimating. Overall HKU and Police estimates are much more aligned. These two parties are actual subject matter experts vs protest organizers, ergo based on historic data and expertise, organizer estimates should be presumed to be less reliable / credible. Doesn't mean 2019 protests weren't massive. They're just likely half as massive as what makes for good headlines.
So what source do we trust on the numbers?

Satellite imagery is likely the best way to estimate.

The massive crowds in slow march peaceful protest videos I saw were astonishing.

However if we extrapolate that not everyone who'd support it or are silently supporting it - what % of people available to protest/march were out?

Edit to add: downvoting a question asking for trustworthy, quantifiable sources - you're failing.