[miguelmota]

I agree with the post for the most part. It's important to feel that your work is acknowledged to feel worthy.

I disagree with this statement however:

> I prefer being upfront with people rather than doing the "It is easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission" route a lot of folks suggest.

Asking your employer if you can work on a side project is like asking them if you can play golf on the weekend. It's your own time off-work hours and you're free to work on a project without begging for permission. If the side project directly competes with you're employer's product then that's a definitely a gray area but you'd know if you're purposely taking intellectual property or not. If you're not sure that your employer will screw you over then get something in writing.

[ncallaway]

I think you misunderstood the context of that sentence.

It's about the IP property ownership, and many employment contracts have specific clauses about IP ownership. And those clauses are sometimes draconian. For example, the preceding paragraph has this sentence:

> Companies in our industry are gradually becoming more reasonable about IP assignment clauses -- there's less of the "we own everything you think of at any point in your employment" nonsense these days. Even at my very straight-laced Japanese megacorp, they were willing to write an exception into the employment contract for a) OSS work that I did outside of company hours and b) Bingo Card Creator.

I think patio11 is saying you should be on solid legal footing for your IP ownership of your outside of work projects. If your employment contract already gives you control over your IP, then there is nothing you need to ask for. But if your employment contract may ambiguously give some control to your employer, then it's better to ask for an explicit point in the employment contract about the project.

So, "forgiveness" in this context is less about getting permission from your employer, and it's more about ensuring you truly own free and clear the IP you generate.

> If you're not sure that your employer will screw you over then get something in writing.

That's exactly the point patio11 was making, I think.

[christophergs]

This. Concretely it's about negotiating the most draconian IP clauses out of your contract before you take the job.

[blacktriangle]

As somebody who has been on the receiving end of an employer (well it was a university system, but still...) coming after my IP, it is absolutely worth having total clarity, in writing when it comes to ownership of side projects.

It seems like a lesson most developers learn. I took a job at a startup that decided after they'd started hiring to pass around an employment agreement covering personal projects. Without talking to each other, apparently 3 of us 4 developers there had all politely refused to sign due to the side project clause. The only dev who did sign was the one fresh out of college. Ultimately developers were given a different contract than everybody else that made clear we owned our side projects and everybody happily moved on, but it was good that we all stood our ground on the issue and had clarity.

[acapybara]

> If you're not sure that your employer will screw you over then get something in writing.

This might be a good indicator that you should leave your employer. If you don't trust that they won't screw you over...

Granted, I know that's easier said than done. But we should all aim to put up with less of this kind of shit from employers.

[milesvp]

Never forget that a company is a group of individuals. All it takes is for one of them some time in the infinite future to decide they own the IP you developed during the time you were employed at the company. Making sure that no one can easily make this claim is sort of basic hygiene at this point. Do this by making sure you have a copy of the employment contract, and that it either doesn’t have any crazy IP ownership clauses, or that you have explicit exceptions to said crazy ownership clauses.

[andrewem]

I agree we should all aim to put up with less of this, but even with an employer you trust there’s no guarantee they won’t run into money trouble and sell to a larger company which takes a harsher view.

[pseudalopex]

Even family and friends can act in unexpected ways when money enters the picture.

[nsgi]

Obviously there's no need to ask permission just to have a side project, but if you have any intention of making money from it and there's an IP clause in your contract which might get in the way of that it's another matter

[jt2190]

Unfortunately this is not correct.

The IP clause is in effect regardless of your intent to make money. So when the contract says “everything you create while employed here belongs to us” that’s the deal.

If you want to own something you create, then you either have to already have a contract that allows you to retain ownership under certain very clear circumstances or you need to ask the company in advance and get it in writing.

(When you negotiate employment you should consider the additional compensation you require in exchange for granting them exclusive ownership over everything you create.)