[iujjkfjdkkdkf]

Somewhat related, I got a new computer this week, and had to boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux. This was the first time in 15 years I have booted into a brand new "consumer" windows install (it was windows 10 pro). The "setup" was basically just 10 minutes of them asking in different ways if they could collect my personal data, track my location, send back telemetry etc. Office 365 is the same. I find some new thing every day that I have to opt out of to prevent them stealing my and my business data. Its like they have given up on trying to improve their products (which are basically stable) and shifted into finding more ways to steal data. As much as I dislike google for this, I realize I'm the product there, with Microsoft I thought I was paying to get business tools, not to be spied on. (To be fair, I then installed ubuntu which also wanted to send my data back to canonical)

Another example, I bought a car recently that defaults to stealing my personal information and sending it to the manufacturer. I had to call, and provide more information to them, to opt out (and I can only assume they are still stealing information they have deemed critical in some way)

Anyway, I'm reminded of all of this because I think the obfuscated cookie consents are just one facet of how hostile consumer tech has become to users. Aided by complex and ambiguous regulations, companies are able to stay within the letter of the law while making it impossible to just be left alone with your purchase and not be tracked and marketed to.

If there is a regulatory solution, it has to focus on clarity and spirit, not on just more rules. I'm not aware of an example of something like this working elsewhere.

One idea is a heavy tax on advertising. I've argued before that there is a lot in common between environmental pollution and the effects of advertising on the public value of the internet, and I would say this extends to tech generally. Charge a 25-40% tax on ad revenue, and make it less economic for companies to pollute.

[aasasd]

> boot into windows so I could partition the HD to install linux

There's your mistake. Partitioning works just fine from the installer, or if the installer provides any live environment on the second virtual console, with gdisk or parted.

[thepete2]

The money Microsoft gets from spying on paying users is sometimes called "surveillance dividend". Even if you pay for something, the company can make more money if they also spy on you.

[matheusmoreira]

Yeah its just like advertising. Not doing it means leaving money on the table...

[AlwaysRock]

Yup. It's so difficult to run Windows without accidentally agreeing to let them use your data however they'd like. They make it time consuming to opt out as well. Very frustrating at times.

[deskelleher]

ShutUp10 is a great tool for quickly viewing and disabling all Windows 10 telemetry: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

[zorrolovsky]

Great advice and thanks for sharing. However, the risk of these programs is that they don't last forever. Microsoft can disable what they do, find alternative ways of stealing data, etc.

[tester34]

>The "setup" was basically just 10 minutes of them asking in different

10minutes for something like 5 questions?

>and shifted into finding more ways to steal data

if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it?

[dylan604]

It easily could take 10 minutes to actually read/decipher the word games being played to confuse the reader into accepting the preferred option the vendor wants. Just like it only takes seconds to accept the ToS/EULA because nobody reads them. If people did actually read them, it would take hours/days to do a "simple" install.

[tester34]

I don't remember the wording being tricky or something along those lines

I don't have screenshoot of those newest windows, but I found one of older quetsions

Diagnostic data - send all basic diagnostic data along with info about websites you browse and how you use apps and features plus additional info about device and its health and enhanced error reporting

You could chose

FULL or probably Minimal(?)

[dylan604]

>plus additional info about device

What is 'device'? In moder parlance, device is a phone/tablet type of something. I've personally never heard of a computer being refered to as a device. What is 'enhanced error reporting'? What is 'basic'?

My natural instinct would be to have clicked no to everything, but just taking that approach screws you when it is worded like some of the options in the TFA 'Disable all basic diagnostic blah blah'. If you quickly select no for everything, then you just said no to disabling, thereby granting permission to do what you thought you were just disabling. These are the things to be looking out for.

[zorrolovsky]

> if they wanted to steal your data, then they'd ask you about it?

Because if they don't meet a bare minimum of decency and regulatory requirements, they will be fined a substantial % of their revenue.

They ask questions because if they didn't they wouldn't have a defense in court.

[blackearl]

It's definitely not 10 minutes. You can tab+spacebar toggle everything to off in about 30 seconds

[zorrolovsky]

Your example is valid for a user familiar with the installation process. OP mentioned is a new user.

Also, even if you toggle "everything off" there is stolen data going through which you don't even have an option to disable.

[jimmaswell]

Interesting how the same crowd that insisted copying a video game isn't stealing now frames collecting data as stealing.

[annoyingnoob]

Copying a game is a one-time event, and everyone gets the exact same code/product.

When collecting usage data, the data is different each time you collect it, and its not a one-time event, it happens over and over.

I'm not condoning copying games, just saying its not a fair comparison to gathering your usage data.

[dylan604]

In legal terms stealing != stealing. There is larceny, petty larceny, grand larceny. One type gets you a slap on the wrist (stealing one's personal data for monetary gain). Another gets you a ridiculous monetary fine (downloading a song/game from torrents). It's out of balance like the murderer going free while the kid with minor amounts of weed going to jail.

[jimmaswell]

I find it absurd to frame making an observation (this person buys a lot of cereal from my store, so I'll tell him about a new brand of cereal that came in he might like) as stealing their data. How do you justify that? How has this cereal buying customer been robbed?

[iujjkfjdkkdkf]

Harvesting peoples behavioral or other data is depriving them of privacy. There is lots of precedent for why privacy is important. So to be specific, the data collection is "stealing" privacy.

And with respect to the gp comment, this is actually different than copyright infringement, where the infringer is not depriving the copyright holder of anything, except potentially a business model based on withholding information. There is obviously a lively debate about the appropriate reach of copyright law, but imo at least, copyrights are more abstract that the privacy rights that are being infringed through surreptitious data collection

[jryle70]

> Harvesting peoples behavioral or other data is depriving them of privacy. There is lots of precedent for why privacy is important. So to be specific, the data collection is "stealing" privacy.

It's not always black and white as the OP demonstrates. Store owners memorize their customer's preferences or habits in hoping of their return; waiters do so to please their customers for tips. The customers weren't consented but that still isn't stealing. Scaling it up, small mom and pop stores compete with big box chain by providing better customer services. They can't do that without knowing their customers. That isn't stealing either.

So where is the line? I'd argue collecting customer's information en mass for the purpose of reselling being the line and that isn't perfect either.

[ExtraE]

What? All dollar bills are the same (functionally anyway) but if I take one from you that’s theft.

Why would the uniqueness matter?

[annoyingnoob]

I'm feeling like copying a finished product that is generally available for sale is not the same as capturing the developer's keystrokes in real-time.

[ExtraE]

But they're both theft, no?

Again, a dollar bill is a widely-available for sale finished product.

[zorrolovsky]

Are you talking about any particular individuals or organizations? Who are they? Is this just a general observation? In which case... what evidence do we have to support your statement? Are you suggesting 100% of individuals who support piracy also support privacy? Or is it more like 1%?

[matheusmoreira]

We're trying to prevent the data from being created and collected in the first place. Data is abundant after it's been created. Once it's in a database it's a lost cause.