This thread is a perfect microcosm of the american psyche - two extremes that only see the other side's extremism. There is little measured, nuanced opinion to be had. Both extreme jingoistic nationalism, and shame for any nationalism at all are unhealthy.
There is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Patriotism is the love of/honoring your heritage, gratefulness for the work that your elders did for you to be here. Nationalism is the promotion of a specific group at the expense of others, relies on victimism to justify supremacism and deludes itself with an ideal that never comes.
The difference between these 2 is mostly known in continental Europe where it became very pronounced in the 20th century, but the psyche of the rest of the world (US included) still has to go through a learning excercise. And this knowledge is also quickly fading in Europe itself. There is no healthy middle ground when it comes to nationalism (not patriotism)
I don't think there's any of what you're saying here. Compared to almost any other country, objectively, there are more flags per capita in the USA, more flags displayed (where else does everything from a car dealership to a hardware store have multiple prominent flags?), etc. These phenomena exist everywhere, but pretending that it's not more prominent in the US of A is committing some fallacy of the golden mean or something.
I must not have, I took you to be saying that my comment - and others like it - were a good example of how 'extremism' on 'both sides' was causing divides, when in fact I think my stance is pretty far from 'extremist', and definitely a far cry from what I think you're equating it with on the 'other side', if that makes sense at all.
Why does someone doing something over-the-top mean you can't enjoy doing it normally?
Look at how and why people want to be in the USA and look at those things as worth caring about. Try to make your country better for everyone and be happy/proud about your efforts and those of your predecessors.
I've visited some 40 countries and have never been in one that was anywhere near so ostentatious in displaying symbols of national pride as the US. It's like you guys will forget you're Americans if you don't see a flag for a minute or two.
Ordinary people hang US flags off the front of their houses. In a bizarre indoctrination ritual, they make their kids pledge allegiance to the state from a young age. They think they're the greatest country in the world.
It's abnormal behaviour. There's no reason to hang your country's flag in front of your house. I mean... maybe if you live near the Canadian or Mexican border and are feeling particularly patriotic or insecure.
> I’ve seen people from all over the world wear or display their own country’s flags.
You may have imagined it. If not, could you say where? It is a uniquely American thing. I mean, Indians will pull out a flag quite often, but they're perpetually at war with their neighbours so it's kinda understandable. In the US you'll see flags on houses in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, owned by people who've never met another foreigner. It really is bizarre behaviour.
Germany. Southern Germany specifically. Lots of people even have Bavarian or German flag stickers on their cars.
Lot’s of flags in Italy including regional flags like Siena which has 17 different flags corresponding to the parts of the city. Lots Italian and Vatican flags in Rome.
I’ve met a Costa Rican tourist in Europe who had a flag hat, shirt, backpack, and a small flag in hand.
> I’ve met a Costa Rican tourist in Europe who had a flag hat, shirt, backpack, and a small flag in hand.
That's very common with tourists, and it makes sense... you're travelling through other countries, representing your own. Same with carrying a flag in a protest or at an international sports event.
That's very different to putting up a flagpole in front of your house to fly a national flag.
Flying in front of residential homes? I don't think so. I could go onto Google Maps and in short order find a US flag on a random US suburban residence. It'd take days to find the same in the UK or France.
Not as common I don't think here in the UK as US, but it does happen in certain areas/by certain people, and carries the same connotations, just with the possible addition of football (soccer) hooliganism.
I don’t get the fuss with the pledge of alliance (non American here).
> "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values? It’s not like you can’t leave (except for the IRS) if you don’t like it.
Borderline indoctrination. You're not pledging commitment to it's "values" and young children are not at an age to have a nuanced discussion or awareness about what those exactly those values are, and make a decision about if they should be declaring a commitment to them or not.
Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You’d just be auctioning their brain to random others who are willing to do that.
I think we either have very different concepts of what indoctrination is, or there is much more beyond the pledge itself, and that is where the real issues are?
> Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values?
You keep saying morals and values. Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Or domestic internment camps during WW2? What about during the Vietnam war? What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?
It's got nothing to do with morals or "values".
Perhaps we should just say "if you feel so strongly about your country at the age of 15 that you want to recite a prayer to it every morning then you can in your own time".
> Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values?
Pledging allegiance to the things that protect and serve you. Support for something larger than yourself. The American ideals in the constitution and on the statue of liberty, even if you don't feel others support them as much as they should.
The USA is a tremendous country that has done more to build protections for people into its law than almost anywhere else. You should see this and support it even if there are problems. America pledges equality and it's actually available. There's a reason the entirely of South America would move to the USA today, and it's a flattering reason if you'd look at it.
> It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation.
No, that never happened. Even during slavery, only some states practiced it and it was distasteful elsewhere, and even in those states it wasn't universal. Small help to a slave, sure, but your representation isn't fair.
> Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that?
Of the country that fought a hard war to end slavery, and is trying for equality? I dunno, you don't seem to have heard that message.
> Or domestic internment camps during WW2?
Meh, war is tough. When you're shooting some people it seems less bad to merely imprison some. Find a solution for the war itself and then let's talk about the imprisonment which were practiced to prevent more killing. Also, Canada did worse in its internments. More theft from the victims, and even worse scapegoating.
> What about during the Vietnam war?
What about? It was a badly chosen war that was guaranteed to go past the initial semi-principled stand into a huge quagmire of a proxy war. Dumb idea and bad. But are mistakes forever damning?
> What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?
So, like the Vietnam war, it's a mistake. But fight to save what you've got rather than equating it to the worst dictatorships. It's also a forgivable thing though, to overreact to murder. It took the UK and Ireland a long time to trust each other after the troubles.
You should be proud to be American. Your country at least tries to right wrongs.
I believe you missed the parent's point. The Pledge of Allegiance is pretty thin on values, other than "liberty and justice for all" crammed in at the end like an afterthought. Mostly it's "my country and religion, right or wrong".
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values?
It's just indoctrination. I mean, commitment to your country is implied. Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends? Why would you do that for your country? It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.
> Do you stand up, put hand on heart and pledge allegiance to your family? Your church? Your friends?
I didn't pick the marriage ceremony my culture used. If it involved a hand over your heart I wouldn't have worried about it.
> Why would you do that for your country?
That specific gesture aside, perhaps because I cared about the ideals it represents and the words in the affirmation.
> It's nationalistic nonsense that has no place in a modern, democratic society.
No. Without some sort of bond to those around me why would I respect their views enough to allow a democracy? It's because we share some goals and ideals. If I thought you hated the things I loved about my country I might see you as an enemy, and vice versa, but if we see that we share our dreams we can survive not sharing any other opinions.
When you're a child you can't realistically leave, and the pledge sounds rather like a promise to never do so. The people making those pledges have very little idea what values they're signing up to. It has the same vibe as chastity pledges, made by kids who don't know what they're talking about at the urging of their parents.
I just quoted the entire pledge and there is no semblance of that. Interesting how every reply has a different, deep interpretation of it. There must be some cultural context that is not possible to get from the outside.
> Why is it bad to declare your commitment to the country you’re born in and it’s values?
Why would you declare commitment to a country just based on the fact that you were born there? Say you were born in North Korea, would you still do it?
I dunno, I’d rather declare my commitment to a country that actually deserves it.