[jiofih]

Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values? You’d just be auctioning their brain to random others who are willing to do that.

I think we either have very different concepts of what indoctrination is, or there is much more beyond the pledge itself, and that is where the real issues are?

[orf]

> Should everyone wait until their kids turn 18 to start teaching them their own morals and values?

You keep saying morals and values. Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values? It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation. Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that? Or domestic internment camps during WW2? What about during the Vietnam war? What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?

It's got nothing to do with morals or "values".

Perhaps we should just say "if you feel so strongly about your country at the age of 15 that you want to recite a prayer to it every morning then you can in your own time".

[Rule35]

> Which part of the pledge pertains to morals and values?

Pledging allegiance to the things that protect and serve you. Support for something larger than yourself. The American ideals in the constitution and on the statue of liberty, even if you don't feel others support them as much as they should.

The USA is a tremendous country that has done more to build protections for people into its law than almost anywhere else. You should see this and support it even if there are problems. America pledges equality and it's actually available. There's a reason the entirely of South America would move to the USA today, and it's a flattering reason if you'd look at it.

> It was still said during a time of complete racial segregation.

No, that never happened. Even during slavery, only some states practiced it and it was distasteful elsewhere, and even in those states it wasn't universal. Small help to a slave, sure, but your representation isn't fair.

> Did the practically unchanged pledge teach children about the morality and values of that?

Of the country that fought a hard war to end slavery, and is trying for equality? I dunno, you don't seem to have heard that message.

> Or domestic internment camps during WW2?

Meh, war is tough. When you're shooting some people it seems less bad to merely imprison some. Find a solution for the war itself and then let's talk about the imprisonment which were practiced to prevent more killing. Also, Canada did worse in its internments. More theft from the victims, and even worse scapegoating.

> What about during the Vietnam war?

What about? It was a badly chosen war that was guaranteed to go past the initial semi-principled stand into a huge quagmire of a proxy war. Dumb idea and bad. But are mistakes forever damning?

> What deeper nuanced meaning am I missing where it balances "freedom and liberty for all" with the massive expansion of the post-9/11 surveilance state?

So, like the Vietnam war, it's a mistake. But fight to save what you've got rather than equating it to the worst dictatorships. It's also a forgivable thing though, to overreact to murder. It took the UK and Ireland a long time to trust each other after the troubles.

You should be proud to be American. Your country at least tries to right wrongs.

[markdown]

Even if all of this were true, there's no reason one should be pledging allegiance to the state. You can be proud of your country, your state, your city, and your community but to have to make pledges in front of other people to signal your patriotism is weird to anyone who wasn't brought up within that bubble of propaganda and jingoism.

Have you seen footage of North Koreans pledging their allegiance to their government? Dial that down a little and you get (some) Americans. It might seem normal to you, having been born into that bubble, but believe me the average patriotic North Korean feels the same.

Patriotism is just tribalism, and while it was crucial five centuries ago, it's a cancer on any modern society.

[Rule35]

> footage of North Koreans pledging their allegiance to their government

You're literally just inventing stuff to get upset about. There's no dictator in America. When you pledge allegiance to the country - or when someone else does - they aren't saying they'll serve anyone's orders, they're affirming their support for something that's actually great. Whatever about the hand and heart - that's a bit demonstrative, but the sentiment is a good one - a better one than almost anywhere else.

It would do you good to try to see the good, before you destroy one of the last remaining bastions of opportunity with ... whatever moral relativism you're on.

> It might seem normal to you, having been born into that bubble

Lol, did you just assume nonsense about my life or what. No, but I can see from outside that you're pissing on the best thing you'll ever have because it isn't perfect. You can't see that what makes it great is the intent.

> Patriotism is just tribalism

No, blind patriotism to any country you're stuck in, is. Patriotism to a country that tries, and succeeds, to be better than most, that's just acknowledging that you've got it good and have a duty to extend that to others.

> it's a cancer on any modern society.

The exact opposite. The lack of patriotism you so embody is the cancer. If America isn't good enough then which country would you work to support? Who is good enough that you won't righteously tear them down?

Leave America and sponsor a migrant on the way. Let them appreciate the thing you despise.

[orf]

You seem really, really incessantly upset about the idea that not everyone practices patriotism in the same way as you.

So I think these long rambling replies do more to confirm the message you are replying to than you realise.

[Rule35]

> I think these long rambling replies

I don't think you know what rambling means.

> You seem really, really incessantly upset

It's just so nice of you to care if I'm upset. I love you too.

> about the idea that not everyone practices patriotism in the same way as you.

No. Just saddened that they feel the need to denigrate the opportunity when there are so many clamoring to get it. So stuck in hatred of America they can't see that most of the world disagrees, and they're the ones in the bubble. Practice however you want, the hand/heart thing and the pledge are not the issue.

[stickfigure]

I believe you missed the parent's point. The Pledge of Allegiance is pretty thin on values, other than "liberty and justice for all" crammed in at the end like an afterthought. Mostly it's "my country and religion, right or wrong".

[jiofih]

I don’t see how it reads as an unconditional commitment. It implies that the values of your country are “right” to your (parents) eyes.