[NestedLoopGoBrr]

You’re right. Hormone therapy, surgical interventions, etc. — they all fail to meet the absolute goal of transition. But they’re good enough until we have something better. What is not better, is arguing that a discussion still needs to be had on whether or not we should consider transgender individuals as if they are deluded and mentally ill.

[throwawaysea]

Don’t you think that a man claiming to be a woman or vice versa is a detachment from reality that is delusional? And if someone is threatening self harm because other people do not accept their personality or claimed gender, isn’t that a sign of being mentally ill? I don’t mean “mentally ill” as a pejorative, although I understand it can carry that connotation. But I feel the definition plainly and unemotionally applies to such circumstances.

I think trans people deserve safety and equal rights. But I am challenging the oft repeated claim that a “transwoman is a woman” or “transman is a man”. I can see the existence of a third gender, as has been the case in some cultures that have historically identified and acknowledged the existence of trans persons. But the push to reclassify existing genders as “cis”, or erase the existing genders, or conveniently switch between gender and sex when suitable, or erase female spaces like sports, all seem like forced views that are only being heard because of aggressive suppression of any dissenting thought.

[DarkWiiPlayer]

> But I am challenging the oft repeated claim that a “transwoman is a woman” or “transman is a man”

I never understood how people are having that discussion. What gender a trans person is comes down to how you define gender and there's a clear divide between people defining it as more of a social thing and others defining it as a mostly biological thing.

Saying "trans women are women" is really just saying "I don't think chromosomes and genitals are the main thing that defines gender. So ultimately this comes down to a disagreement about a words definition, which is utterly pointless (unless you're specifically looking at it from a language perspective I guess, in which case it's probably quite an interesting debate).

One way or another, this has nothing to do with whether gender dysphoria is a delusion or not.

[dmpk2k]

> What is not better, is arguing that a discussion still needs to be had on whether or not we should consider transgender individuals as if they are [...] mentally ill.

Why?

[NestedLoopGoBrr]

Because simply put it is arguing that people who are proven to be physically wired in a particular way are merely living a delusion. It is easy to not be fully aware of the state of research on this topic if it doesn’t affect you, but as a trans woman, I am extremely familiar with what I’m talking about.

[leadingthenet]

> are merely living a delusion.

How are they not living a delusion?

Do people with other physical dysphorias not live in delusion? Such as when you feel like your arm doesn’t belong to your body and you want it cut off?

The answer that is politically incorrect, but completely obvious to anyone, is that of course those situations are analogous, and if you can reasonably say that one of these groups is deluded, you can say the same about the other one, too.

Except in one situation we employ physical therapy, and in the other mental therapy.

I’ve yet to receive a single explanation as to why this is, other than “experts know better”. No, that’s not good enough.

[NestedLoopGoBrr]

> I’ve yet to receive a single explanation as to why this is, other than “experts know better”. No, that’s not good enough.

That likely is because asking these questions of a general forum of people who are highly unlikely to be qualified to speak on the subject are highly unlikely to have an informed answer. But you’re conflating, confusing, and distorting two completely separate ideas here.

What you described is called Somatoparaphrenia, which is not a dysphoria at all, but classified explicitly as a delusion. And while we can certainly agree that physical intervention is not the right strategy, at the behest of the individual suffering from the disorder, they would also be physically impairing themselves were it to be carried out.

Transitioning does not produce such impairments, and in fact leads to a significantly improved quality of life, reduction or complete remission of depression, and overwhelmingly thus produces a better overall mental health in most cases.

And again, I’m speaking from _experience_ on that.

[leadingthenet]

I was referring to Body integrity dysphoria (BID), which does seem to be related to Somatoparaphrenia. Let’s not get into semantics about which is a “dysphoria” and which is a “delusion”. My point stands: neither of those is treated by amputation, except in exceedingly rare circumstances.

> Transitioning does not produce such impairments, and in fact leads to a significantly improved quality of life, reduction or complete remission of depression, and overwhelmingly thus produces a better overall mental health in most cases.

> And again, I’m speaking from _experience_ on that.

I’d argue that your personal experience is irrelevant, precisely because there’s no way to establish that it’s not delusional. Could you even tell the difference between a genuine improvement of the underlying condition, and simply feeding someone’s delusions to the point where we’ve changed both them (physically), and society (to make them feel less disparaged)?

Amputation often makes individuals with BID feel better too, yet it is extremely controversial, even among experts.

My belief that the only difference is politics has not yet been shaken.

Edit: since it seems like I’m unable to reply further, let me just add this. No, I don’t believe the above poster is delusional, I’m asking whether there is a way to even establish such a thing, and if not, where the ethical difference vis a vis treatment for BID lies. Again, the poster completely sidestepped these questions.

[NestedLoopGoBrr]

My experience is extremely relevant, as transgender individuals are an extremely small portion of the population (1/300th of the population) and those reported experiences are key to building viable info sets required to better improve treatment strategies. And I can say definitively, transitioning has significantly improved the quality of my life. Minus having to deal with conversations like this where I’m forced to defend my position to a stranger who is convinced I’m delusional (and while I’m not required to, it is unacceptable to see this position go uncontested and therefore I am compelled to refute it), my daily life has gone from extreme depression and social isolation to being a social butterfly and exceedingly positive. At this point, most people who have met me in person have done so after transition, and so it’s not something people know unless I tell them.

Note the figure above. 1 in 300 (while small) can be a lot more people in your life than you think, but if you are the type to share opinions like that in public rather than solely in pseudonymity, they know better than to mention it to you.

[dmpk2k]

Schizophrenics are also "wired in a particular way". Why should one be classified as a mental illness, yet the other is not?

[chillfox]

I don’t know anything about schizophrenia, so I can’t answer that for you. But I believe strongly that the classification, diagnosis and treatment for it is a question for the medical professionals working in that area and the people with the condition to sort out.

[dmpk2k]

Except now we are discussing treatment for children too, not just consenting adults. The moment our children are involved, most of us will not allow this to be brushed off with appeals to authority.

Not to mention that authorities are regularly wrong, e.g. lobotomies.

[chillfox]

I have never seen anyone advocate irreversible treatment for children. The only thing I have ever heard of is delaying the onset of puberty so that if they decide to go ahead when they are adults then they will have the best outcome, and if not they can cancel it at any time.

[chillfox]

This 100%