[mwfunk]

It's been said many times here over the past few years, and it'll get said a lot right here today, but rule of thumb: never enable WiFi on a TV except maybe temporarily to do an update or something. And even then only if it's absolutely necessary. Get a Roku or an Apple TV or a game console or whatever you want for watching streaming services. Never use what's built in to the TV, not just for privacy reasons but because it always seems to be a terrible experience compared to running Hulu, Netflix, etc. on anything else. But for privacy too- the TV companies were incredibly egregious about privacy years ago and AFAICT it's only gotten worse since then.

[_coveredInBees]

The "problem" with the LG OLEDs (I own the 77C9) is that webOS is actually quite good, the interface + processor snappy, and the magic remote quite good for effortlessly switching between your favorite streaming services or Plex. Even with a Harmony remote, it takes 1-2 button clicks to get wherever I need to be.

By contrast, the cheaper Fire and Chromecast devices have always felt much more sluggish. I really want an nVidia Shield but I'm not dropping $200 on outdated hardware when I already have a fantastic HTPC hooked up to my TV.

Fwiw, I've managed to not accept a bunch of license agreements on my C9 and have avoided anything too egregious. It is a glorious panel though and I hope they don't monetize it to the point that you can't use it without an active internet connection.

[arthurfm]

> The "problem" with the LG OLEDs is that webOS is actually quite good

You might change your mind once you see what LG have done with webOS 6.0. [1]

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/11/22223767/lg-webos-6-tv-so...

> LG says "the new home screen provides faster access to the most frequently used apps and streamlines content discovery with the ability to receive recommendations based on the user’s preferences and viewing history". You can see a big "sponsored" slot in the top left there, so yes, you can expect some ads and paid placement recommendations on the home screen of your future LG TV.

[_coveredInBees]

Ouch, yeah that does look horrible. Fortunately my C9 won't be getting that upgrade. I'd still buy an OLED TV if I had to buy a TV now, and it would likely be LG, but I'd just budget spending the extra dollars on a Shield or some other streaming box that is ad free and as privacy friendly as possible.

[jackcodes]

“

As a user

I want to see relevant partner content on the home screen

So that my content is more targeted to my needs

”

[zapdrive]

Hear hear. As a quite satisfied owner of 2 LG OLEDs, I agree with your assessment. It's a shame that no other company makes OLEDs. Panasonic just started making then using LG frames, but I don't know if they are any better in the privacy department.

[ornornor]

I own a Panasonic OLED. Never seen an ad on it. It does ping some analytics hostname regularly even with data collection disabled but I’ve klined this in the firewall and it doesn’t try anything else. I didn’t try to see what’s the payload to that data collection domain so maybe it was empty to begin with.

[phire]

Samsung are switching over to QD-OLED in the near future (next year?)

It's a combination of the Quantum Dot technology from QLED and OLED.

[bscphil]

Sony? Vizio?

[Daho0n]

They use LG.

[xvector]

Yes but they don’t have the same software stack, which is what the concerns are about.

[phkahler]

Samsung makes OEDs no?

[gabagool]

Samsung doesn't, actually. They now only make "QLED" TV's and LED TV's.

However, a lot of other brands sell OLED TV sets including Sony, Vizio, TCL, etc. Maybe they're referring to manufacturing the physical OLED screen? I don't know what impact that would have on privacy concerns, though.

[Larrikin]

A Roku is a much much better experience than Fire or Chromecast

[_coveredInBees]

I definitely would support Roku over Google/Amazon. I like having another player in the market that has a "neutral" platform and large support across different streaming apps due to the size of their userbase.

I am just skeptical of something like the Stick+ being snappier or as snappy as the C9 processor. And if I'm looking at dropping $100 on the Roku Ultra, again, I'd rather wait on a Shield update to HDMI 2.1 and then pick that up for $200 in a year or so.

[wyldfire]

I preferred roku when the Amazon vs google fight meant I couldn't use Youtube TV. I stocked up on rokus in the house figuring they were the safe bet. And then for months there was this stalemate between WB and Roku where I couldn't access HBO Max. Seems like I can't win. I bought an Apple TV and I've been pretty happy with it so far.

[mbreese]

Don’t forget — for a while you couldn’t get Amazon Prime video on an Apple TV. I too went all in on Apple TV and I’ve been able to largely avoid the ad issues in the article. But it isn’t like it was completely immune to these shenanigans, especially in the beginning.

[azinman2]

And far worse in privacy.

[ianai]

I’m still seeing loading screens on my Streambar and newer Roku equipment. Not a major problem but it’d be nice if they were snappier.

[colinmhayes]

Roku lost me when it couldn't watch HBO. How can I trust the service now?

[Larrikin]

Roku always had HBO, but didn't have HBOMax in the beginning of the service.

[r00fus]

Amazon Sidewalk is an effort to bypass your workaround of preventing network access to TV manufacturers' ad networks.

Hopefully it fails like DIVX, but given there are 4G radios in most cars today, it probably will succeed.

Soon appliances and other IoT will no longer be reliant on your say-so on what data it collects and when...

[jjoonathan]

My TCL bootloops if you disconnect it from the network for more than a week or two. Support is willing to help! First step: connect it to the internet.

[novok]

Some TVs use the network via your HDMI connected devices (ex: the roku or whatever stick) or do searches for open wifi networks that you may have no control over to get their sweet, sweet surveillance fix.

[crazygringo]

Do you have evidence for that though?

I've heard that repeated but never seen anyone actually test it and it would be shocking if true.

It seems more likely that in these cases, a family member or friend connected to the WiFi instead, without the owner being aware.

And if it were actually true and verifiable then surely journalists would have written articles on it by now.

[nitrogen]

Ethernet over HDMI is definitely a real thing. Someone else would have to comment on whether it's enabled by default on various devices, and which devices are capable of acting as a gateway vs client.

[rsync]

I don't own a smart TV and I, too, am skeptical that your grandparent is correct that TV makers are surreptitiously using other devices as network bridges with HDMI, etc.

BUT ... since we're talking about it ... are the network lines on HDMI reserved for that purpose such that you could create an "HDMI condom" ? I have USB condoms that I use to charge phones with, etc., and wonder if the same concept works with HDMI ...

[nitrogen]

It looks like HDMI uses separate pins from the video signal for Ethernet and Audio Return Channel. I originally thought it was using a shared packetized bus for HEC, but it's actually kind of clever -- differential mode signal on those two pins is HEC, common mode signal is ARC.

HEAC utilizes two lines from the connector: the previously unused Reserved pin (called HEAC+) and the Hot Plug Detect pin (called HEAC−).

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_Ethernet_and_Audio_R...

So if you don't need ARC, it should be possible to make a simple filter that blocks both HEC and ARC. Older HDMI cables that might not connect the Reserved pin might also block HEC+ARC. And it also seems like you can get ARC-only by disconnecting the Reserved pin.

I'd guess HEC is most commonly going to be used in situations where you'd also want ARC -- to provide network access from an A/V receiver to a smart TV, and then get the audio back into the receiver.

[karlding]

HDMI Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC) uses the two Ethernet pins.

[mjcl]

It's a spec, I've yet to see a device that implements the spec.

[tomc1985]

Even so, the TV somehow configuring the connected device to bridge its network adapters is a bit of a stretch.

[marshmallow_12]

That sounds quite shocking. Basically the tv manufacturer is invading your home. I don't understand how that can be legal. Maybe it's just illegal on such a tiny scale, nobody cases.

[novok]

"To use this TV, agree or it's a paperweight"

[TheCoelacanth]

Seems like a clear violation of the CFAA.

[CameronNemo]

Soon they will come with LTE modems, like cars do.

[xeromal]

I will put my goddamn tv room in a faraday cage if it comes to that.

[ianai]

I hope there’s some way to blast it with localized radio noise to block the 5G for just that purpose.

Really just need to make the dark patterns illegal or costly though.

[wyldfire]

Jamming is usually illegal, probably even in your home. For good reason: it's unlikely you can prevent the effect of the jammer from leaking outside.

But shielding is just fine and is mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

[ianai]

But hopefully less than a whole room of shielding.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Disconnect, cut, or desolder the antenna.

[foepys]

Samsung is using bluetooth for their new remotes. Desolder the antenna and you cannot use the TV anymore.

[m463]

Actually, it's 5G, which is like wifi for advertisers/data capitalists.

[Silhouette]

I don't think this comment deserves downvotes. The arrival of 5G, and with it devices that can make their own external wireless connections, is a significant risk to consumer privacy. How it is used and regulated over the next few years could establish what is considered an acceptable standard for privacy for a long time afterwards, and it's clear which way a lot of device manufacturers are going to be pushing.

[wyldfire]

Affordable, embeddable 2g modems have existed for many years and have perpetrated some of the problems you're concerned about.

5G offers greater throughput but I don't think that tracking applications are only now enabled by 5G. Most 5G deployments are small cells in ultra dense areas and most snooping manufacturers would prefer the range of LTE.

[Silhouette]

I'm more concerned about the near-to-mid future in this respect.

It is still quite unusual to have embedded LTE modems and the like in consumer devices. Outside of a few relatively expensive product types, like cars and of course phones/tablets, I think most people would be surprised to find independent wireless connectivity in their consumer products and a lot of people would probably ask why it was there if it had no obvious purpose.

With 5G looking like it's going to be mainstream in most developed countries within a few years and promoted extensively as a technology for connected devices and applications using inter-device communication, it feels much more credible that both the infrastructure networks and the component manufacturers involved could offer pricing models that make incorporating connectivity cheaply into any device you feel like a realistic outcome.

My concern is that we drift into a situation where including local network communications, possibly sensors, and independent remote communications all in the same devices becomes routine, without anything close to adequate protections for security and privacy to go with it. Given that governments around here (UK/Europe in my case) are only just beginning to act on issues like right to repair and online privacy and have barely touched numerous other issues raised by modern tech and its capabilities, I'm extremely wary of a relatively uninformed public accepting a lot of hostile measures because they either don't know any better or (possibly correctly) assume that by that point there is nothing they can do about those measures even if they don't like them.

[yellowapple]

I doubt device manufacturers consider 5G to be a prerequisite for snarfing tracking data out of said devices and vomiting ads into them.

[lawnchair_larry]

Which TV can access the network via a roku?

[Daho0n]

Any device that is connected via a hdmi with ethernet, If both devices supports it.

[wyldfire]

And then the endpoint has to also provide a NAT, DHCP server etc? Or at least a bridge/ARP proxy? And it has to know that it should be configured as an upstream device, providing those services and not depending on them.

Can anyone cite a user manual or something official that talks about this feature?

[lawnchair_larry]

Which is none of them, right? So this is a lie?

[gboss]

I thought this was the case! A commenter on a previous thread said this was really unlikely [0], but I really believe it happens. Not sure how to prove it though.

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20205969

[bathtub365]

Why do you believe it happens in the absence of evidence?

[kitsunesoba]

Some TVs allow firmware updates via USB thumb drive, which I think is a feature worth selecting for. This allowed me to get some bug fixes for my Sony Bravia TV that I would’ve had to live without had updates been online-only.

Additionally, there are some models that come with nearly-stock Android TV that are easy to remove creepware from (just plug into laptop and remove with ADB) should one feel inclined to use built-in smarts.

Personally I’ve been using an Apple TV and it’s served me well.

[jasomill]

I'd be willing to bet that all modern TVs support local offline firmware updates.

Whether the actual firmware update binaries are readily available to non-commercial end users is another matter entirely (and of course equally important!).

In the case of my recent-ish LG model, they are, and offline USB updates work fine.

[notyourday]

Buy a Spectre TV. Sane price. Very good picture quality. No stupid "smarts". https://www.sceptre.com/

[floatingatoll]

Doesn't Roku send the same data? Don't Apple TV apps track what we watch in each app, just like a Kindle tracks what we read and how fast you read it?

Is the goal here to avoid any metrics being transmitted? Is it to avoid aggregate metrics across all of our apps and devices being transmitted?

It seems like the original objection in the article is that it's the advertising that's the problem, not the data collection and metrics, and the suggestion of Roku and Apple TV seems a poor solution for two of those three problems.

[bitexploder]

Our Sony with built in Android TV is quite nice. It’s a bit of a privacy hit but not too bad. Everything just works, including Android apps like Kodi. It’s hard wired with Ethernet... kinda requires when streaming ultra hi def over the LAN.

[foepys]

I don't know about the newest models but up until the XH series wifi was actually faster than ethernet. The SoC only supported 100MBit/s ethernet which isn't enough for high quality UHD content.

[bitexploder]

You know, I never checked. It’s a newer model. It has never struggled with 80 GiB movie files.

[Rastonbury]

You can setup use NextDNS on Android TV to block ads and tracking.

[anothernewdude]

Don't even buy a TV. Monitors are strictly better.

[minetest2048]

No its not. No one is selling 120 Hz OLED monitor, to the point that people are buying 48" LG CX 48 as a monitor which IMO is just too large for a monitor

[selcuka]

I'm pretty sure Dell makes Alienware OLED gaming monitors up to 55" that support 120 Hz. They are more expensive than TVs though.

[gumby]

Hard to find these days.

[shostack]

Roku is not ad free. https://advertising.roku.com/

[propogandist]

>Get a Roku or an Apple TV...

Roku is the noisiest device on PiHole, constantly trying to phone home, Amazon Firestick is up there too.

[JetSpiegel]

> never enable WiFi on a TV except maybe temporarily to do an update or something

Why does a TV need a software update? If it can't show the output of HDMI out of the box, it's not fit for purpose and should be returned.

[FireBeyond]

An issue that some manufacturers are foreseeing - some TVs, if you don't give them network access, will just start looking for open networks and find their own way out.

[mokus]

Isn’t that a federal crime in the US under CFAA?

[salawat]

If true, yes. Don't imagine it would get enforced as zealously on a company willing and able to defend its recurring revenue stream though.

[JKCalhoun]

Until my TV starts torrenting content.

Damn TV!

[snypox]

Do we have a proof of that? Sounds _very_ illegal.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Roku TV is no more invasive than the standalone boxes with the benefit of an integrated OTA guide.