[watoc]

You're right but that doesn't mean we should accept it. Why we didn't accept it when Saddam invaded Koweit or when Russia annexed Crimea? Colonization of Palestine has very negative direct and indirect consequences on our world.

[smachiz]

Sorry - has something changed with Crimea? Begrudging acceptance seems to be exactly where we're at....

[watoc]

AFAIK very few countries have recognized Crimea as part of Russia. So my comment is still valid, most countries did not accept the annexion.

[slavak]

No countries recognize Israeli claims to the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and even the comparatively tame annexation of the Golan Heights is recognized by very few.

That means, formally, Israeli actions in the OPT are even less accepted than Russia's annexation of Crimea. Practically, begrudging acceptance seems to be a very apt description, arguably of the latter even more so than the former.

[watoc]

Didn't the Trump administration declare that the settlements were not illegal? Palestine is not even fully recognized as an independent state.

Besides the comparaison with Crimea, the point was that borders throughout history have been shaped by colonizations and invasions but that cannot be used to justify colonization itself.

[smachiz]

but also haven't really done much about it right?

We threw some sanctions on them... that appear to be fairly toothless.

[nailer]

Crimea was given by Stalin to Ukraine relatively recently. Yes, Russia took it back by threat of force, but it's not like they didn't have some historic claim to the land, much like Jews do to the Kingdoms of Israel and Judea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea#1954_Transfe...

[excieve]

That's a very dangerous position. If you want to go there you'll find a long list of claims of almost anything.

Take Crimea for example: the Russian Empire only conquered it in the late 18th century (relatively recently too). Should the Turks claim it next (as the Crimean state was the Ottoman Empire's vassal before) or maybe Mongols, Greeks, or descendants of Goths, Huns?

There's a reason for avoiding forceful border carving in the modern world for "historic justice". It is a phony cause and leads to a chain of generational violence. Too bad the modern world never acts to efficiently prevent it.

And by the way, Stalin was already dead by 1954 — difficult to "give" anything in that state. Not even mentioning that "giving" in USSR is just an administrative re-arrangement of a territory within an empire. By that logic, all the states ever being part of any empire have a "historic claim" on the other parts.

[nailer]

Are you saying there are a lot of Turkish people in Crimea?

[watoc]

That's a very slippery slope if you justify the colonization of Palestine by Israel because it was part of a jewish kingdom thousands of years ago. Spain has been muslim for centuries would that be acceptable if they settled again there by force?

[nailer]

There is no colonisation to justify or otherwise, there was a continuous use of the land by Jewish people since this time. The name 'Palestinea' only came about as a punishment by the Romans for Simon bar Kokhba.

Not that Wikipedia itself is a good source, but thi has a bunch of references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba

> In the aftermath of the war, Hadrian consolidated the older political units of Judaea, Galilee and Samaria into the new province of Syria Palaestina, which is commonly interpreted as an attempt to complete the disassociation with Judaea.

[watoc]

There has been a continuous use of the land by Christians and Muslims for centuries as well. So because Judaism has existed the longest they have the right to expel everybody else or best case scenario, make them second-class citizen (Law of Return, Jewish National Fund ...). There has also been a continuous presence of native Americans for much longer than Europeans in North America...

If you're denying that colonization even exists it will be difficult to have a discussion based on facts.

[nailer]

I’m not denying there has been Arabs and other groups there. The situation regarding expelling is in many cases more more likely to do with people avoiding tax under the Ottomans (if you didn't own a field you were using, you couldn't be taxed on it) than forced expulsion though.

You’re also confusing a religion with an ethnicity in your comment. The issue is Arabs and Jewish people not anything to do with Islam, Christianity or atheism.

[watoc]

> The issue is Arabs and Jewish people not anything to do with Islam, Christianity or atheism.

Religion has a lot to do with the issue. Religion and ethnicity are often strongly related especially for Jews. Judaism is the main element that identifies Jews together and the vast majority of Arabs living in Israel/Palestine are Muslims.