[_qulr]

> Personal insults are inappropriate in this forum.

It's not a personal insult. Talking out of both sides of your mouth means saying contradictory things, and I made lists of the contradictory things you said in one comment.

> I haven’t made any positive comments about Apple here

There are several HN usernames that I recognize on sight, because I've seen them repeatedly defending Apple in the comments of every HN story. zepto is one. coldtea is another, for example. Your reputation precedes you. ;-)

> I haven’t made my mind up about anything, except that Dustin’s original tweet was bullshit

I don't think "bullshit" is a helpful way framing it. It may be the case that Dustin misunderstood the full causal connections in this case. However, there were still some very strange occurrences:

1) If your autopay fails, Apple Card will disable your card immediately and prevent further transactions. 2) If there's a mixup in returning a trade-in, then Apple will quickly hold your accounts as hostage. 3) If either 1 or 2 happen, you can't call Apple on the phone and get it cleared up quickly.

As an Apple customer, I wouldn't expect any of those to happen. Especially since Apple supposedly controls this whole process and has its name on every part.

> How many of those people also read the blog post, and how many are now aware of the uncertainty?

9to5Mac has a wider readership than Dustin, and their story was also repeated by other tech media. So I'd say there was ample opportunity for Apple's response. Moreover, if people make up their mind forever based on one tweet and/or blog post, and never revisit the issue, the blame is on them, not on either Dustin or Apple.

> We have a right to expect forthrightness from him as much as from Apple.

I just found this comment from Dustin. "Shortly after publishing, I received a phone call from "Apple, Inc.". When I tried to answer, the call dropped. Then my Apple ID account was suddenly unlocked and I got an email from someone saying they are going to try to call again tomorrow." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26314385 So yes, hopefully we'll see a follow-up article with further details.

> It just means someone is likely to buy again. Not that they see the company as a friend whose interests they want to protect.

Agreed. My point in calling him a loyal customer is this if someone is likely to buy again, a company ought to treat them well and give them the benefit of the doubt rather than treating them like a criminal with immediate suspicion. Such treatment is very likely to decrease their odds of buying again. In other words, locking Dustin out of his accounts was bad business, regardless of what Dustin did.

> Nobody is branding Dustin a criminal

You apparently haven't read the various comments that I have.

> The comments about the stolen computer are people pointing out that this is the situation almost any business would be concerned about in the absence of a response from the customer.

In general, I'm very concerned about out of control "fraud detection algorithms", big tech companies locking people out of their accounts based on false positives, and the complete inability of users to contact those companies and get support and restore their accounts. This is where I'm coming from. It's becoming a very big problem, and I disagree strongly with the many people who have claimed that Dustin got what he "deserved". None of us deserve that, no matter what. We're at the mercy of these giant corporations, who appear to have no mercy.

Apple has created perverse incentives for people to go public with problems, because that actually gets results, unlike trying to contact Apple customer service privately. Look how fast Apple reacted after the article was published! If our only recourse is to "run to the press", that's what you can expect, and that's what we see.

[DanBC]

> Talking out of both sides of your mouth means saying contradictory things,

It's a bit more than that, isn't it? There are elements of dishonesty.

From Cambridge Idiom Dictionary

> be speaking/talking out of both sides of (your) mouth

> American

> to say different things about the same subject when you are with different people in order to always please the people you are with.

> How can we trust any politicians when we know they're speaking out of both sides of their mouths?

[zepto]

> I made lists of the contradictory things you said in one comment.

An incorrect interpretation, but I accept that you thought that at the time.

>> I haven’t made any positive comments about Apple here

> There are several HN usernames that I recognize on sight, because I've seen them repeatedly defending Apple in the comments of every HN story. zepto is one. coldtea is another, for example. Your reputation precedes you. ;-)

I think you may be mistaken. I don’t generally make positive comments about Apple.

Clearly you aren’t referring to any such comment here, so this is a pure ad-hominem, and nothing to do with this conversation.

You seem to classify people as ‘Apple defenders’ or ‘cultists’ which doesn’t seem like an accurate way to make sense of what people are doing when you read their comments.

> > I haven’t made my mind up about anything, except that Dustin’s original tweet was bullshit

> I don't think "bullshit" is a helpful way framing it. It may be the case that Dustin misunderstood the full causal connections in this case.

As written, the tweet contained no truth whatsoever. It was bullshit.

>> However, there were still some very strange occurrences:

Perhaps, but that is in no way connected to the truth of the tweet.

> 1) If your autopay fails, Apple Card will disable your card immediately and prevent further transactions. 2) If there's a mixup in returning a trade-in, then Apple will quickly hold your accounts as hostage. 3) If either 1 or 2 happen, you can't call Apple on the phone and get it cleared up quickly.

Not complete bullshit, but also certainly not something we know to be true.

Here’s why:

1. We don’t know Dustin’s side of the full story, so these conclusions themselves are in doubt. We know he hasn’t told us everything yet.

2. Even if he bears them out, you are stating these as if they are generally true, rather than a rare occurrence. You simply don’t know that, and so are making a false generalization.

As pointed out in the prior thread, if this was happening as a matter of course, it would be unlikely that we were only just hearing about it now.

> As an Apple customer, I wouldn't expect any of those to happen. Especially since Apple supposedly controls this whole process and has its name on every part.

The only reason anyone would think that at this point is if they had read a false claim about it. If it turns out to be standard practice, we will certainly hear about it from more people who have experienced it.

However we still don’t even know if your interpretation is even valid in this one case, let alone in general.

> How many of those people also read the blog post, and how many are now aware of the uncertainty? 9to5Mac has a wider readership than Dustin, and their story was also repeated by other tech media. So I'd say there was ample opportunity for Apple's response. Moreover, if people make up their mind forever based on one tweet and/or blog post, and never revisit the issue, the blame is on them, not on either Dustin or Apple.

Clearly false. It’s well known that headlines influence people, and misinformation is often not checked. Yes, it would be better if people didn’t operate that way, but we know they do.

If you spread misinformation, you are responsible for it. It’s clearly false to say it’s on everyone else for not being sufficiently skeptical.

On this subject of skepticism, it seems like you are now agreeing that we should in fact be skeptical of Dustin, and want to see information corroborating his claim, otherwise it is on us for believing him.

Interesting change of position.

> We have a right to expect forthrightness from him as much as from Apple.

>>I just found this comment from Dustin. "Shortly after publishing, I received a phone call from "Apple, Inc.". When I tried to answer, the call dropped. Then my Apple ID account was suddenly unlocked and I got an email from someone saying they are going to try to call again tomorrow." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26314385 So yes, hopefully we'll see a follow-up article with further details.

As I said - it’s on him to respond next. He seems to agree. We’re only talking this because you denied that.

> It just means someone is likely to buy again. Not that they see the company as a friend whose interests they want to protect. Agreed. My point in calling him a loyal customer is this if someone is likely to buy again, a company ought to treat them well and give them the benefit of the doubt rather than treating them like a criminal with immediate suspicion. Such treatment is very likely to decrease their odds of buying again. In other words, locking Dustin out of his accounts was bad business,

I assume you are speaking from ignorance here. My guess is that Apple has a lot more data on fraud prevention and customer retention at their scale then you do.

> regardless of what Dustin did.

Weird. Obviously not true. There are many things a customer can do that should cause a business to hold them in bad standing. Suspected theft would be one.

>> Nobody is branding Dustin a criminal

> You apparently haven't read the various comments that I have.

Or possibly I just haven’t read into the comments what you have.

>> The comments about the stolen computer are people pointing out that this is the situation almost any business would be concerned about in the absence of a response from the customer.

>> In general, I'm very concerned about out of control "fraud detection algorithms", big tech companies locking people out of their accounts based on false positives, and the complete inability of users to contact those companies and get support and restore their accounts.

A reasonable concern.

> This is where I'm coming from. It's becoming a very big problem, and I disagree strongly with the many people who have claimed that Dustin got what he "deserved".

Ok - but that has nothing to do with our conversation. You seem to be bringing baggage with you. If you want to debate people who think Dustin ‘deserved’ something, you should reply to them and not bring that to someone who isn’t saying that.

> None of us deserve that, no matter what. We're at the mercy of these giant corporations, who appear to have no mercy.

Also true of many corporations. Apple however has many avenues of customer service, and indeed if this was a regular occurrence, we’d know about it.

> Apple has created perverse incentives for people to go public with problems, because that actually gets results, unlike trying to contact Apple customer service privately.

This is clearly false. Apple has billions of customers, millions of Apple Card users, and only one person going to the press with this problem.

> Look how fast Apple reacted after the article was published! If our only recourse is to "run to the press", that's what you can expect, and that's what we see.

Apple seems to offer many more avenues for recourse than most other companies.

Dustin ‘running to the press’ was based on him somehow forgetting about the return and falsely attributing his account lockout to Apple Card.

If true this would have indeed been something to raise.

It’s possible that Dustin shares your concern, and that this caused him to falsely assume the worst and make the incorrect accusation that he did.

I’m just guessing of course, but I agree that these concerns exist. This is all the more reason not to rush to judgement.

It’s certainly possible, even likely that Dustin’s case was bad customer service. That’s bound to happen sometimes when you have a billion customers.

There is no evidence at all that Dustin was left with no other recourse than to make an incorrect tweet to correct that.

[_qulr]

> As written, the tweet contained no truth whatsoever.

"I forgot to update my Apple Card autopay info" True. "Re-enabling them takes 3-5+ business days." True. It's also true that Apple was holding his accounts hostage, just perhaps for a different reason than he believed. A lot of people seem to be ok with Apple holding his accounts hostage for the trade-in, but I for one am not ok with that.

> As pointed out in the prior thread, if this was happening as a matter of course, it would be unlikely that we were only just hearing about it now.

No, because first of all, it appears that Apple giving advance credit on trade-ins is a very new policy, and they previously waited until the trade-in was returned before giving the credit. Also, it seems there was a coincidence of several factors that don't often occur all together. 1) Failed autopay. 2) Failure to return trade-in. 3) Apple charges card for the trade-in value within just a few days after the failed autopay. 4) Charge is declined just a few days after failed autopay. The timing of all these were crucial, and would not all happen together commonly.

> If you spread misinformation, you are responsible for it. It’s clearly false to say it’s on everyone else for not being sufficiently skeptical.

I disagree with the term "misinformation" here. I'm still waiting to hear more details, but I certainly don't believe that Dustin intentionally said anything false. If something he said turns out to be false, then yes, he should correct it. However, my point is that nobody can force other people to listen to them a second time. You can correct yourself, but if people walk away after the initial story and never pay attention again, what can you do? "Never say anything false in the first place" would be a ridiculous suggestion, because nobody is omniscient, and the pressure to never say anything false just leads to censorship, which is highly undesirable.

> As I said - it’s on him to respond next. He seems to agree. We’re only talking this because you denied that.

No, I said that some of my questions were for Apple rather than Dustin, such as questions 3 and 4. Some questions he can answer, some questions he can't, as he doesn't know everything Apple does and never will.

> I assume you are speaking from ignorance here.

You said personal insults are inappropriate in this forum.

> My guess is that Apple has a lot more data on fraud prevention and customer retention at their scale then you do.

Heh. If Apple has data that they can treat customers like crap and still retain them, I certainly won't dispute that possibility. But a lot of people including myself would never want to do business with a company who thinks like that. I think it's shortsighted.

It does seem like "Tim Apple" operates more in accordance with this idea than "Steve Apple" did.

> Obviously not true. There are many things a customer can do that should cause a business to hold them in bad standing. Suspected theft would be one.

I wasn't talking about hypothetical customers, I was talking about Dustin. We know what he did, or didn't do: update the autopay information on the Apple Card, and send in the old MacBook Pro trade-in.

> There is no evidence at all that Dustin was left with no other recourse than to make an incorrect tweet to correct that.

I'm not even saying this is why Dustin tweeted. I can't read his mind. Maybe he was just pissed and venting, which is a very common thing on Twitter. After all, he was still locked out at the time of the tweet. I am saying that we see a lot of stories in the news media with people complaining about some action that Apple has taken, and the Apple defenders always come out of the woodwork to defend Apple and criticize the complainer as spreading "misinformation" about Apple, as though an individual suffering from Apple's inscrutable systems can be expected to be not only omniscient but also "sympathetic" to Apple. From my perspective, there can be no good justification whatsoever for Apple locking Dustin out, and thus the precise reason why it happened is no defense for it. We certainly want to know why it happened, but there's no excuse for the lockout IMO. So I'm not as bothered by the tweet as you seem to be.

[EDIT] By the way, I just search https://twitter.com/search?q=to%3A%40dcurtis&src=typed_query... and the very first result was "Get fucked you liar". That's just the tip of the iceberg of the comments on the internet.

[zepto]

> As written, the tweet contained no truth whatsoever.

"I forgot to update my Apple Card autopay info" True. "Re-enabling them takes 3-5+ business days." True. It's also true that Apple was holding his accounts hostage, just perhaps for a different reason than he believed.

Yes, and so his tweet was complete bullshit.

> A lot of people seem to be ok with Apple holding his accounts hostage

Nobody except you is talking about accounts being “held hostage”, so it’s just not true to say anyone is OK with that. You are misrepresenting people here.

> From my perspective, there can be no good justification whatsoever for Apple locking Dustin out, and thus the precise reason why it happened is no defense for it.

This is obviously an absurd position.

Refusing service after non-payment is completely normal business practice.

Of course there can be good reasons for it.

It is helpful to know that you going to condemn Apple’s actions regardless of the truth.

It would have been more honest for you to just say that before.

This makes perfect sense of why you weren’t interested in Dustin’s side of the story.

Generally I would not assume this of anyone because it’s uncharitable and one can be wrong even if someone comes off that way, so it’s refreshing to see you openly admit it.

> [EDIT] By the way, I just search https://twitter.com/search?q=to%3A%40dcurtis&src=typed_query... and the very first result was "Get fucked you liar". That's just the tip of the iceberg of the comments on the internet.

Very unfortunate, but not clear what this has to do with the conversations we are having on HN.

The tweet that they are responding to is clearly false, but there isn’t any evidence that Justin lied.

It seems much more likely that he made a mistake or posted in the heat of the moment.

It was unwise of him to post such an obviously inflammatory statement without being certain about it.

If he were to simply acknowledge his mistake, it would cast those bullying tweet in an even worse light than they currently are.

I can see that you have been truly upset by what you have seen on Twitter.