[Dave_Rosenthal]

There has been a huge divide in the drone world between high performance first person view (FPV) drones capable of acrobatics and the "tripod in the sky" type drones that companies like DJI have popularized. The former has been very DIY and the latter have attracted companies to build integrated solutions.

This new drone from DJI brings an truly staggering amount of innovation and integration to the FPV space:

- Low res analog video -> high res digital video

- Modest transmission range -> long range

- Integrated simulation to learn to fly

- "Bail out" button that almost instantly nulls drone movement and puts it in a stationary hover

- ~5 minutes fly time -> ~20 minutes fly time

- Adjustable camera tilt on the fly to maintain level horizon at a variety of drone speeds (drone tilts more with speed)

Extremely impressive first offering in this category.

[Naomarik]

DJI digital video has been out for quite awhile now for hobbyists to include in their custom builds. Transmission range is not a valid point because a clean analog video signal and Crossfire outpaces DJI enormously.

The 20 min flight time is a lie, Joshua Bardwell measured 10 minutes hovering. That's extremely easy to surpass on typical light weight 5 inch freestyle drone with a 1300mah battery that cost a fifth of the price of the DJI ones.

It is an impressive drone, but for experienced FPV pilots it's very limiting.

[dagmx]

I think the biggest thing is accessibility. DJI continues to break down the preexisting knowledge required to get into a space.

For better or worse, because there's a lot of irresponsible drone flyers as a result too, but this product makes fpv flying much readily available for those who want to try it without investing the time/effort to learn about how to do it better with other setups

[robomartin]

> For better or worse, because there's a lot of irresponsible drone flyers as a result too

The industry is doing a horrible job of educating people and, as a result, they are ruining it for everyone else. I have been flying all manner of radio control craft for over thirty years (planes, helicopters, drones and "things"). As a simple example, I would never --ever-- fly anything over people, homes, roads or high fire risk brush areas. I have crashed enough time to understand that that these things are toys that are not designed to the standards of real aircraft, often suffering from multiple single-point failure risks that could bring them down and either hurt someone or cause serious damage to property.

Our neighborhood FB group is, at times (usually around Xmas and people's birthdays) filled with videos from people flying their new drones over roads (as in, directly over cars), over homes, over bone-dry brush surrounding our neighborhoods, over people (crowds, kids, at parks, without anyone knowing), etc.

The other kind of post is "I flew my drone for the first time in front of my house and I lost it". Which, of course, makes me crying at multiple levels. The crash could easily cause a brush fire that could take out an entire neighborhood [0], and, of course, hurt or kill someone [1].

At first I tried to educate people as to the realities of these devices. I own RC helicopters that cost well in excess of $3,000 and I still consider them unsafe toys. Yet people get offended and verbally abusive when you explain that their $300 drone, despite the hype, is a toy that could fall out of the sky at any time and potentially cause great harm. I mean, I have worked on the design of space capsules that are docked at the International Space Station and people are arguing with me about their toys actually being "reliable". Jeez.

It's only a matter of time until a tragedy occurs. Thankfully the large fires caused by drone crashes have, so far, been limited to open areas. One day someone is going to crash a drone into the bushes in a neighborhood, the LiPo is going to rupture and half the neighborhood will burn down. Sadly people seem to value their fun far more than the safety of others.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/03/drone-crashes-in...

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/2/27/14755116/jail-sentence-dr...

[dylan604]

>without investing the time/effort to learn about how to do it better with other setups

I do not believe that this is a good thing at all.

[mynameisvlad]

Why is gatekeeping FPV drones so important to you? Opening it up to new potential users some of which will want to eventually invest in better setups seems very much like a good thing.

[dylan604]

I don't consider it gatekeeping. I consider it responsibility. Low barrier to entry is not always such a good thing. The idiots that would not get into it because of some sort of required training but would get into it without hesitation without training are typically ones that cause the problems for everyone else. There are lots of things in life/society that requires some sort of responsibility. I feel that something you can fly in a manner that you can only see in one direction without fully knowing what else is around you is one of those things. Caveat being designated areas setup and maintained as a UAV operating area.

[05]

Rotor Riot's infamous bridge dive [1]

Mr Steele's failsafe when diving a building [2], Reddit discussion [3]

Nurk's train video (for which he was fined by the FAA) [4]

But surely, those trained professionals that learned how to solder wires to the ESCs can't be dicks.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJgRuMXBHHI

[2] https://gfycat.com/freshthisinsect-multicopter

[3] https://old.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/5hajmh/lets_al...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQDcDZ6rmGE

[Naomarik]

Yup. I've been flying long enough to know that even though my radio and video link can easily take me several kilometers out, it can fail at any moment and I have to treat it as such.

RTF packages have always existed, but DJI making this widespread will allow every random person to buy one from their local store and have the ability to fly acro, which is pretty horrifying.

[matsemann]

> The 20 min flight time is a lie, Joshua Bardwell measured 10 minutes hovering.

To be fair, hovering time is often lower than flight time for copters.

[harperlee]

So 10 minutes up, then 10 minutes falling?

[ben7799]

Anything with rotors generates extra lift when moving vs hovering, so it requires less power to hold altitude when moving vs hovering.

Imagine if you stopped the blades but the craft is still traveling forward... lift is being generated by the air flowing over one side of the rotor just liked a fixed wing aircraft.

At the extremes some full size helicopters can't climb straight up, they have to have forward motion to generate enough lift to climb. This allows use of a smaller motor to bring operating cost down.

In the case DJI drones the battery times are usually quoted with some amount of forward speed.. it generates a longer run time than a hover test.

[benhurmarcel]

There's also simply the effect of not staying in a downstream you created.

A drone/helicopter accelerates air downward, and it's easier to accelerate still air than air that's already moving downward.

[alkz]

in this case the drone is so fragile that the only way to get 10mins of flight from it without breaking it, is to hover

[ionwake]

I dont know why this comment was downvoted I found it both funny and informative

[sangnoir]

It's obviously hyperbole - but the problem is that without the hyperbole, the comment communicates nothing substantive. How was it informative?

[alkz]

it informs you that you're going to crash it when you try to actually fly it, and it will break badly. fpv drone frames are usually made from thick carbon fiber, with replaceable arms, and are designed for durability and repairability and they still get wrecked in crashes. so even if i put it in a funny way, it's not as much an hyperbole as much as a fact: unless you're pretty much hovering, you're going to end up with a very expensive and unserviceable pile of broken electronics and plastic

[hactually]

You seem in the know, any recommended sources or communities I should look into, or even if you're happy to share more I'm keen to hear it

[meheleventyone]

I got into it a few months ago Joshua Bardwell as the sibling mentioned is a great source of info: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCX3eufnI7A2I7IkKHZn8KSQ

The main thing anyone starting needs to realize is that it takes quite a bit of time to get used to how Quads fly in Acro/Rate mode. I started on a simulator (Liftoff) with an XBox pad and that was super punishing as gentle and precise control is needed. Switching to a proper radio was a night and day difference. I'd guess it took 5-10 hours of flying time to get to the point where I could comfortably go where I wanted 99% of the time. I'm up to 50 hours of sim time now and flinging the things around with wild abandon. Looking forward to summer and getting out to try the real thing.

My recommendation for starting out would be to grab a cheap radio that is easy to connect to a PC and a copy of a simulator.

[faeyanpiraat]

This is super important!

Clock in 20-30 hrs of flight time in a sim using a real radio, before even thinking about building a quad.

You might realize it is not for you, and save the hassle, but more importantly it is really dangerous, even when you are an experienced driver.

Without sim experience you are guaranteed to crash quickly and do some damage in stuff and/or people!

[throwaway6734]

Recs for a cheap radio that is easy to connect to a pc? I also had the same result when trying to use a gamepad

[meheleventyone]

After research I went with the Radiomaster TX16s. There are several specs and I went for the mid-range version that has Hall effect gimbals for the sticks. You can get more console controller style radios as well but I fancied the bigger screen and a bit more space.

[throwaway6734]

Thanks!

[muu-g]

I haven't personally used these radios but they seem to be highly recommended budget options from people in the know: - BetaFPV LiteRadio 2 - Jumper T-Lite

In terms of a pc simulator I have used Velocidrone which everyone says has the most realistic physics but is not necessarily the prettiest.

You might also find the following site useful as a shopping guide: - https://www.fpvknowitall.com/fpv-shopping-list-controller-an...

It's an addictive and fun hobby for which I'm still in the initial stages of.

Happy flying!

Edit: first time posting / trying to format properly.

[throwaway6734]

Thank you!!!

[aramachandran7]

UAV futures is also a fun youtube channel to get started with and is a little less technical than joshua bardwell at first.

to have your mind blown by experienced fpv pilots, check out Nurk FPV, Johnny FPV, Mr. Steele, and Rotor Riot.

FPV is a disproportionately expensive hobby ... every hard crash can cost you between $20 ( broken motor bell) to $200 (cost of entire drone when dropped in water and electronics go poof). Still great hobby, highly recommend!

[somehnguy]

UAVFutures is a Banggood/affiliate marketing shill unfortunately. Can't trust a word that comes out of his mouth when it comes to product reviews (which is the vast majority of what he does).

[StavrosK]

There are various FPV groups on Facebook, and Joshua Bardwell shares a lot of knowledge on YouTube. Also, prepare to lose a lot of your life soldering things.

[Naomarik]

Facebook is the #1 community resource for drones unfortunately. If you want to get started check out Joshua Bardwell on Youtube.

[LukaD]

> - Low res analog video -> high res digital video

> - Modest transmission range -> long range

Those are not really new. DJI has been selling their standalone digital FPV system for a while now. And there are lot's of different long range radio systems available.

But I agree that this is impressive. I wonder if Betaflight, etc. will also implement some kind of bail out feature.

[bri3d]

Betaflight already has very rudimentary RTH / "GPS Rescue" functionality, obviously without ground/forward sensors it's not as good, but it does work pretty well for "oh no something has gone wrong" in the form of video or control link loss.

[magnat]

> Low res analog video -> high res digital video

Major benefit of analog video is a progressive degradation of quality as a signal gets weaker and almost instant reacquisition after a complete dropout. I'm curious to see how DJI competes with that on a digital video.

> ~5 minutes fly time -> ~20 minutes fly time

For FPV racing that's rather a downgrade. Ideally you'd like to land with almost empty battery right after finishing the course. Any leftover charge is a dead weight that only slows you down. But then again - I don't think this drone will be used in competitive FPV racing.

[somehnguy]

>Major benefit of analog video is a progressive degradation of quality as a signal gets weaker and almost instant reacquisition after a complete dropout. I'm curious to see how DJI competes with that on a digital video.

The good news is that you can find that out right now. DJI HD FPV has been available for over a year, this is just their first drone offering in the category.

The short answer is that it degrades very gracefully. They have what they call 'focus mode', where the edges of the video lose quality before the middle (where the data matters the most). Once you've used up that signal degradation threshold the rest of the frame slowly degrades to a lower bitrate, and then after that latency starts rising.

After flying analog for 5 years it only took me about 1 day to strongly prefer the DJI FPV video solution. The range is far better, and the video is mind-blowingly clear when compared to analog. On anything but my racing specific drones I have been installing the DJI HD FPV system instead of normal analog gear.

[ofrancon]

> it degrades very gracefully

Pretty convincing comparison by Joshua Bardwell:

Shark Byte: https://youtu.be/9iKc2v05blw?t=926

vs DJI: https://youtu.be/9iKc2v05blw?t=1046

vs analog: https://youtu.be/9iKc2v05blw?t=1227

[cma]

> They have what they call 'focus mode', where the edges of the video lose quality before the middle (where the data matters the most).

If the latency is low enough it would be nice if they could incorporate eye tracking into that in the future, and move around the high quality region with your eyes. And maybe feed it from a gimballess 360 camera so you have full freedom to look around. Stereo cameras would also be nice, maybe with some differential compression between eyes to keep bandwidth down (would need a gimbal for that most likely, to keep line between cameras horizontal).

[prawn]

As you say at the end, this isn't a drone for racing. I think this drone would mostly be for videographers wanting to add FPV-style shots to their arsenal. I shoot with a Mavic 2 (https://serio.com.au/) and if there was a bit more of a market for the FPV look in the work I typically do, I'd grab one of these right away.

At this point though it's probably something I'd look at closer once I have a bit more spare time and can think about situations where it might be applied.

[baybal2]

> Major benefit of analog video is a progressive degradation of quality as a signal gets weaker and almost instant reacquisition after a complete dropout. I'm curious to see how DJI competes with that on a digital video.

Waiting for a degradation tolerant codec.

Old MPEGs were, as they had broadcast use in mind, but even 264 blow them out of the water on compression nowadays.

Loss tolerant codec + modern channel coding will likelly outrange analog for quality picture

[ohazi]

SVC profiles target bandwidth degradation, but yeah nothing really recovers from random dropouts anywhere in the steam like analog...

Lots of I-frames, I guess...

[baybal2]

Lots of I-frames means you effectively revert to a little more sophisticated version of mjpeg

A cheap, and dirty hack I can think of is to dynamically adjust the bitrate for the bandwidth after FEC/channel coding. Margins will still have to be quite huge I believe.

[HPsquared]

On progressive degradation, perhaps the digital video output could be adapted with an indication of the error rate (which usually get corrected in the background until it reaches a threshold where the errors are too great)

Or perhaps the signal strength or SNR.

These parameters are available but not usually displayed.

[nomay]

Isn't the edge being there's almost no delay in analog video transmission? While the best DJI can do is like 130 ms.

[sudosysgen]

They say their delay for this drone is 28ms, and I'm inclined to believe them.

[somehnguy]

I've been flying DJI HD FPV for about a year now and yes - latency hovers around 24ms in good conditions. The range also blows away my normal analog gear.

[Udik]

> Any leftover charge is a dead weight that only slows you down.

Uh? Can you explain this?

[robbiep]

Presumably not literally like in the case of a rocket or formula 1, but also literally as in, I could have used a lighter battery with less charge that goes faster

[dagw]

If you have leftover charge after you land it means you could have used a smaller (and thus lighter) battery, which would have let you fly faster.

[sneak]

The product is amazing, but I'm sad that the first amazing integrated fpv product out is coming from DJI. It makes perfect sense, but I hate giving them money as each DJI purchase is a positive reinforcement for their abhorrent approach to consumer privacy.

I'll probably get one, but continue to complain loudly online that every DJI product, including the offline ones, requires an account and email address and registration and the transmission of your serial number for it to work - including their little handheld, no-internet, record-to-sd-card cameras. :/

[jessaustin]

Is there a drawback to lying on this registration? One-time email, fake PID, etc.? Assume one doesn't live in PRC...

[sneak]

I use the one-time email, on a VPN, but there’s no way around it transmitting your serial number. To keep it private in the future you need a dedicated offline mobile device to run the app, which after installing the app never goes back online.

I don't want to have an offline DJI-only phone.

Most people who fly drones are sending their IP, gps data, and serial number to DJI on every flight.

[jessaustin]

Yikes! I had forgotten all of that... maybe an old phone without a SIM might be a good idea.

[novok]

An excuse to eventually brick your device.

[wereHamster]

High-res digital video has been available to the multicopter community for a long time now through https://www.dji.com/fpv. First released by DJI, later the technology was licensed to others (at least the camera / VTX side of the electronics), se for example caddex vista / nebula (https://caddxfpv.com/collections/dji-1).

[latchkey]

Interesting that it is all sold out too...

[bri3d]

DJI seem to have diverted their supply chain from hobbyist FPV to this new drone. Supply for all DJI FPV gear has been very limited ever since they filed the "V2" goggles (for the Drone) with the FCC.

I'm hoping they keep their hobbyist/DIY FPV system going though, as it blows everything else out of the water. Analog video is well, bad, open source alternatives are either abandoned or mediocre, and the Divimath/Fat Shark system is not even comparable in terms of quality.

[ben7799]

That makes sense though.. they're probably putting initial production of the V2 goggles into the FPV kits, and running out their supply of independent V1 Goggles.

My guess is at some point soon they'll be selling the V2 goggles on their own for the hobby use case.

[latchkey]

I guess all the things you mention is why they continue to get my money. Bought the drone yesterday to compliment the Air2, which I absolutely love, and can't wait to try it out.

[moooo99]

> - Low res analog video -> high res digital video

For Hobbyists, the high res digital video is definitely a great development and makes for a better flying experience overall. Real racers still complain about the latency, but they are not the target of the digital FPV system and the new DJI FPV drone always.

But the high res is nothing unique to the DJI FPV drone. DJI started offering the Digital FPV system a few years ago for integration into diy drones.

> - Modest transmission range -> long range

There are plenty of long range transmission standards in the DIY space such as TBS Crossfire etc. For video transmission, it heavily depends on the transmission power which quickly becomes the listing factor. In Germany (and most EU states iirc) the transmission power for 5GHz signals limited to 25mW, which heavily reduces the range . 2.4GHz is not supported with the DJI AirUnit or Caddx Vista iirc.

For lots of countries long range isn't even that much of an important feature since its legally only allowed to fly line of sight anyways. However, for countries with less strict drone laws this seems like an awesome addition.

> ~5 minutes fly time -> ~20 minutes fly time

That is the most misleading part imho. The 20 minutes flight time are only realistic when flying in the fully sensor supported "Mavic like" mode. If you're actually going for the powerful freestyle FPV experience, the flight time is still around 3-5 minutes with the major difference that a replacement battery for the DJI FPV is about 150€ while a LiPo for a DIY racing quad costs around 30-40€ a piece. That the flight time is heavily decreased when flying in the actual FPV freestyle (acro) mode is not surprising (its only a 2000mAh battery in a heavy drone), but I find the claim highly misleading.

> - Integrated simulation to learn to fly

In the FPV space, simulators have been a thing for quite a while now. There are multiple simulators such as Freerider, Velocidrone or Liftoff, all with different focuses and a broad support for controllers. You can even use a Xbox controller for the beginning. So integrating a simulation to learn to fly is no unique to DJI and nothing new in the FPV space at all.

> - "Bail out" button that almost instantly nulls drone movement and puts it in a stationary hover

The bail out button, even though I see a lot of risks with it, seems like a great feature for beginners. I really hope that beta flight will add a similar feature to upcoming firmware versions.

The DJI FPV drone seems like a relatively fragile drone. The most annoying part is, that there is apparently no real way to fix anything yourself besides the props. The current FPV drones really can take a beating and you probably won't break that much. If you do, you can simply order a new arm for your frame or a new motor. You need some technical knowledge and skills such as soldering, but you do not depend on the manufacturer with an Apple like repair policy.

The DJI FPV seems like a great entry option for cinematographers who just want to get some FPV style footage (which might be possible, but seems limited since the props often show up in the frame) with as little technical confrontation as possible. For people who just fly for fun and want some high speed stunts, diy drones still seem like the better option.

For anyone wanting to enter the hobby, there are a lot of bind and fly drones out there where little technical knowledge is required. For the technical knowledge that is required, there are lots of really supportive communities.

[djrogers]

> The DJI FPV drone seems like a relatively fragile drone. The most annoying part is, that there is apparently no real way to fix anything yourself besides the props.

That seems to be untrue - according to the verge:

"If you’re like me and wreck this drone, you can replace the following items yourself: the top housing shell, propellers, the gimbal / camera module, and the arms. "

[1]https://www.theverge.com/22308345/dji-fpv-review-first-perso...

[prawn]

Given it's shooting 4k with a wide FOV, you could crop out the props. Most of the time with 4k, I am cropping and reframing anyway. In the past, my Mavic props have occasionally been in view too.

[jiofih]

Have you tested one? Video reviews are reporting at least 10-15m flight times in cold weather.

[moooo99]

As I said, 10-15 minutes seems completely realistic when talking about the sensor stabilized and comparatively slow flight modes.

Most FPV channels that were reporting on the DJI FPV drone and actually tested the completely manual flight mode (which is the only one that really compares to the FPV flying you see in many videos) got around 3-5 minutes out of the battery.

And again, it makes sense when looking at freestyle maneuvers and how much power they require.

[jiofih]

Sure you’ve been watching the actual reviews? All the ones I could find show 15-20m for sport mode, 10-12m for manual mode averaging >140km/h. It’s one of the key selling points over kits really.