[dagmx]

A lot of our smart home stuff is primarily around our dog as well.

Cameras to watch the dog when we're out and lights to turn on when it starts getting dark.

We also have a training treat dispenser so when she barks at strangers, it'll dispense treats to keep her distracted and learn to calm down instead of barking.

In many ways, dogs are like kids, and you go through the same things for them.

[sokoloff]

I can imagine that feedback mechanism could go badly. Want a treat? Randomly bark.

I say this only because we did not manage to successfully train out the bark at strangers behavior in our otherwise pretty well-trained dog.

[dagmx]

If done with a proper supporting training, it's to redirect their attention onto their safe space.

It doesn't necessarily train them from barking at strangers but it gets them into a more relaxed state, which can let you use other tricks to decondition them.

[wombatmobile]

In real life you achieve this by physically restraining the dog with your hands for 15 seconds in an unambiguous manner when it does the unwanted behaviour.

[Judgmentality]

Please don't do this. This is a horrible way to train dogs, and not only is the efficacy questionable but it will very likely lead to behavioral issues down the line.

[wombatmobile]

It's not a horrible way to train dogs. What is horrible is the image you have in your mind of what I am saying, which is a misunderstanding.

[Judgmentality]

Please don't double down. I've raised several dogs, and fostered at least a dozen throughout my life. I am regularly the "last guy" for problem dogs because nobody else knows how to handle them, and have dealt with many dogs who have attacked humans (and I have been bit many times dealing with these dogs).

I saw from your other comment that you learned this from Cesar Milan. Well like most celebrities, his advice can actually be harmful. You have to realize this entire guy's job is to sell you himself so he can make money from his brand.

https://medium.com/@vandanni.hadai/cesar-millan-the-problem-...

EDIT: Redacted recommendation based on comment. Normally I'd leave it, but if there's even a 5% chance that comment in the reply is true I do not want to encourage it.

Instead, try this book: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761168850

[dagmx]

Quite a few people in the dog community aren't fans of canine intervention either.

https://www.reddit.com/r/puppy101/comments/lrok2i/whats_ever...

He's just another Cesar like trainer, just for a slightly newer age. I'd recommend not following his advice either, and consulting more positive reinforcement based behaviorists.

[wombatmobile]

> Please don't double down.

I don't understand what you mean by that phrase. In the context of my comment, it is a non-sequitur. You're not really conversing with me. You are conversing with yourself.

[amelius]

> have dealt with many dogs who have attacked humans (and I have been bit many times dealing with these dogs)

As a non-dog person, may I ask how I can best deal with a dog attacking me?

[dagmx]

That isn't really recommended training by most behaviorists. You risk upping the dogs negative association and stress with events.

Negative reinforcement training isn't great.

[wombatmobile]

I didn't say to hurt the dog. This is a communication, not a stressor. It is recommended by Caeser Milan.

[dagmx]

Cesar Milan is a terrible example of dog behaviour training. Most of the dog behaviorist community dissaproves of his methods.

Positive training is much more the norm these days. Cesar's techniques can create terrible feedback loops that create worse behavior long term.

[loceng]

Arguably what works really depends on your relationship, the trust you have or don't have yet with the dog. And we're all mostly speaking without referencing what exactly the positive or negative reenforcement methods we're even talking about, so it's a fairly shallow level of discussion missing the nuances.

[derekp7]

Serious question. Humans have been dealing with domestic dogs for 10's of thousands of years, as work partners and companion animals. Obviously there should be some common methods that have been successful during that time, so why is it that every decade or so we have "new methods these days", instead of having a set of proven methods over the last few millennia (whatever those proven methods end up being)? Why does best practices with dogs seem to change quite a bit on the scale of decades?

[loceng]

What I had to do 2 or 3 times total with my last dog when she was badly misbehaving in circumstances that simply aren't acceptable, where she wasn't wanting to listen/not calming down, was to take her, lay her on her side, put a lot of my body weight on her to gently pin her and grab her by the snout with both hands holding it down/together - while looking her in the eyes and in a slight low, slow, growly voice say "nooooo" - until she stopped resisting and became submissive again. It's over quickly and the behaviour stops from this "punishment"/control where she re-learns I am in control, and then regains confidence that I am an adequate pack leader.

This technique for barking is also very useful for quieting barking: some dogs will quiet very quickly and can be controlled just with the hand(s) over the snout with the low "nooooo" sound - others will fight to pull away and then you may need to add the gentle pinning action as well.

This technique comes from how that this is what mothers will do with their pups if they are barking and need them to be quiet - they will gently bite down on their snout from the top and growl quietly; maybe it's akin to a parent going "shhhhhhhhh" to a baby/child?

Also, my dog, Kylie, was 50 Lbs. The technique I described is harder to do on much larger dogs and much smaller dogs for various reasons, little dogs more often have alpha behaviours because the little buggers are hard to grab onto their snouts.

[dagmx]

This is horrifyingly incorrect. Your dog is very likely to learn to bite you in the future and what you're doing is abusing your dog.

Also you reference alpha/beta behaviour which has been debunked ages ago. There is no such thing.

Your understanding of dog psychology is decades out of date. It only works because you are instilling fear in your dog. Maybe your dog won't ever snap at you, but your methods have a very high risk of creating a violent dog.

Please seek out a dog behaviorist. Your methods are not what anybody should be doing.

[loceng]

It's clear whatever understanding of animal behaviour you're indoctrinated into isn't the only method. Packs have leaders, a hierarchy - and that is determined in part by trust development and in part on taking a dominant stand. You can do this non-violently - and depending on your relationship with your dog, the trust, their intelligence - more subtle tactics work well - and it isn't violent at all; increased stress isn't fear, so you can't assume fear is being caused - perhaps for some dogs where there isn't trust with the person, sure, then fear is possible: I'd have fear if a stranger entered my house without me knowing them or them being invited, but if a family member comes in unannounced and unexpected I'll just perhaps be startled momentarily - but no harm was done.

You need more nuance on your rigid belief that what I did to successfully and safely train my dog - I can't imagine what you're picturing - but I was in full control and in no danger, and she wasn't going to bite me because I am far stronger than she is - and I had my hands over her muscle. And there was trust with her, she wasn't an aggressive dog - highly intelligent and so it took little influence to redirect her behaviour. For sure, certain dogs with certain temperament

Your blanket statement that what I'm doing is wrong is wrong.

I assure you there was no more fear or stress than if you raised your voice to a child who's misbehaving. Most dogs aren't lacking in experience with physical interactions with other dogs - making noises/barking to friendly nipping to more aggressive nipping for control/dominance. Gently putting your dog on their side in a safe and controlled manner, putting some weight on them - enough to know they can't move - and gently holding their snout together while deeply, softly, calmly, slowly growling "noooooo" until they calm down is very mild and subtle in reality. Arguably if you don't have trust with the dog or your dog is aggressive and they don't submit fairly quickly - then that tactic can't work.

You seem to be more on the coddling side of the spectrum. The "horrifyingly incorrect" and "abusing my dog" comments make me wonder what you're imagining too.

Citations needed on "alpha/beta behaviour" has been debunked is needed. You can see hierarchies everywhere including with animals - it's why dogs can learn to not bite or nip people, but will nip other dogs in playful or even aggressive ways - but not humans, because they know people are higher up in the hierarchy.

You don't seem to care to take nuance or context into account in your analysis, and it sounds like your experience with and behaviour of dogs is limited as well - as I said before, indoctrinated into whatever methods you suggest; I'd love to see videos of a variety of scenarios you think will help - and I wonder how realistic they will be or how serious and urgent of situations they are to take control of the situation.

[dagmx]

Your understanding of pack leaders is out of date knowledge. It's as simple as that. You are operating on a much debunked theory of dominance and social hierarchy that was based on a misunderstanding of wolves in captivity.

Canines have much more complex shared social hierarchies. This is well established today.

You're doing the equivalent of passing off 1950s psychology as modern. Science has moved on. Please do the same.

Some citations on canine hierarchies

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/dog-behavior-and-trai...

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,0...

Any modern literature on dog psychology will disprove your methodology and understanding.