[irrational]

We installed solar panels a few years ago. They take care of 100% of our electrical needs (and we live in Portland Oregon where it is cloudy 9 months out of the year). I haven’t had to pay more than $12/month, and that is the fee we are charged by PGE to be hooked into the grid so we can sell them our excess. One thing I’ve found out is that we no longer worry about electricity usage. I used to fret about lights being left on, but no longer. That doesn’t seem healthy, but when you are no longer worrying about paying for something you stop worrying about wasting it.

[m463]

On the other hand, electricity pricing is a construct. To some extent it is designed so that you do worry and limit use of a shared resource.

I think other utilities like internet service adopt this construct, then monetize worry to get you to pay a little more for all-you-can-eat.

There's an interesting quote from a former chairman of the atomic energy commission:

It is not too much to expect that our children will enjoy in their homes electrical energy too cheap to meter, will know of great periodic regional famines in the world only as matters of history, will travel effortlessly over the seas and under them and through the air with a minimum of danger and at great speeds, and will experience a lifespan far longer than ours, as disease yields and man comes to understand what causes him to age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_cheap_to_meter

[nannal]

Can you imagine being that hopeful about the future, I know a lot of people are opting not to have children due to the environmental nightmare those children would have to survive.

[astrange]

That's more relative than absolute expectations, or maybe you just know a lot of neurotic people.

Even if climate change is as bad as WW2 (doubtful over the same time scale), people still had children then, and they still had children when every city was covered in a foot of horse poop, all your kids died at 14 and doctors didn't believe in handwashing. In fact they had more!

[imtringued]

As you have less children you put more resources into each child.

[astrange]

Aren't we talking about not having any kids at all here?

It takes a bit less than 3x resources to have 3 kids though, since they share things.

[m463]

also, children at some point might be might be like factorio, where the early ones start gathering resources for the later ones :)

[Robotbeat]

I am hopeful about the future, and I am training my children up to be assets in the fight against climate change and poverty.

[m463]

I like the book "the rational optimist" by matt riddley.

[opo]

>... I haven’t had to pay more than $12/month, and that is the fee we are charged by PGE to be hooked into the grid so we can sell them our excess.

Wow. If you are only paying $12 a month for access to the grid, you are paying a small fraction of your share of the cost of maintaining the grid. These consumer solar subsidies are a massive subsidy from the poor to the wealthy and really aren't sustainable.

[supertrope]

Net metering is a temporary state intended to build critical mass and get mass production going. Solar panel owners don't pay the full cost of grid services, and utilities are not paying them for the full value of the electricity fed back in.

Residential solar IMO is mal-investment because grid scale solar has better economies of scale. Solar plants are easier to maintain. The grid is not built for widespread net metering. Rooftop solar has more fatalities than nuclear because of installers falling off.

[reducesuffering]

Hardly. My "access" bill is $20/mth, but my panels give $350/yr more to the grid than I use. PGE gives me like $30 of that back at the end of the year. So that $12 / $20 doesn't tell the whole story. They are also likely giving a lot more renewable energy to the grid that isn't compensated and is more like another $30/mth of cost.

[opo]

>...but my panels give $350/yr more to the grid than I use.

You are likely confusing wholesale and retail prices of electricity. Even just considering solar, the cost for a utility to generate the power itself is likely between 2-4 cents per kilowatt. Most states require the utility to essentially pay the retail rate for electric power for any power generated by rooftop solar since it directly offsets the electrical usage. (Never mind that the electric power might have to be purchased when the utility doesn't want the power.)

Buffet has complained about how this issue:

>...His logic is simple, he wants to have to pay wholesale electricity rates for the energy generated by rooftop solar instead of the same price NV Energy is charging these customers since he says it will penalized customers without solar panels.

https://electrek.co/2016/03/01/warren-buffett-explains-his-l...

So unless you are using the wholesale price for the estimate for the value of the excess electricity generated, you are greatly overestimating its value.

Besides overpaying for the electricity generated by rooftop solar, your $20 access bill is another subsidy. One estimate is that the average yearly cost to maintain the grid is about $750 per customer.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/the-u-s-elec...

[irrational]

Wait, don't we want to penalize customers without solar panels?

[opo]

>Wait, don't we want to penalize customers without solar panels?

Why do you say that? If the government wants to subsidize solar power, isn't it better to do it in a way that is safer, less expensive and the benefits are shared by all consumers?

[astrange]

What kind of lights do you have? As far as I know it takes a lot of LED lights before you have to care if you left them on or not, even if you left them on all year.