[jblow]

Hi,

When I saw this announcement I was hoping that I could finally buy a laptop with a good trackpad, with buttons, and a good keyboard again. But looking at the announcement, it seems like trackpad and keyboard quality are far from anyone's mind, and it just looks like the laptop is copying Apple stylistically like everyone else, which means it is going to be kind-of unusable and I won't want to use it. (Especially when running Windows, those kinds of giant Apple-esque trackpads are death, because you'll keep accidentally moving files into places you didn't mean to, and then of course there's the general unresponsiveness once you add all the PalmCheck and turn-off-trackpad-for-n-secons after typing junk).

I like the idea of a laptop built for quality, but for me the #1 determinant of quality is my area of constant physical contact with the laptop, the keyboard and trackpad. And sadly, those look like afterthoughts here.

(For context -- I have bought and heavily used an average of more than one laptop per year, every year, since 1998, and have been dismayed to watch the quality trend constantly downward over that time).

[nrp]

Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing just yet.

[Liskni_si]

Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well.

This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_...

Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …

[com2kid]

See, I disagree, I use home/end/pageup/pagedown all the time, and having them separate in an awkward spot is annoying. I prefer having them overlaid on the arrow keys, with fn to access them. IMHO that is the one area laptop keyboards can superior to full size keyboards.

[Liskni_si]

We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then, so that you can choose a variant when purchasing it and then replace it with different one if you find out you don't like it.

(And then, let's not forget that keyboard layouts are somewhat configurable in software. It's easy to bind pageup to mod-uparrow and pagedown to mod-downarrow. But it can't be done if the physical keys are missing, so physical keyboard layouts with more keys are preferable to those with less keys. Unfortunately fn-combos are usually hardwired in the Embedded Controller and can't be changed easily in software.)

[fsflover]

> We probably need laptops with configurable keyboard layouts then

https://puri.sm/posts/librem-14-adding-librem-ec-freed-embed...

[Liskni_si]

By configurable, I mainly meant the physical layout of keys, configurable at purchase time. So that one can get a laptop with a trendy 6-row chiclet, or a proper 7-row classic ThinkPad keyboard.

But yeah, being able to override the key mapping in EC is an important feature as well, and I'm glad someone's doing it! I really hope for the future where all these pieces come together: a laptop with a good physical keyboard (configurable/swappable, so that everyone can get their meaning of "good"), with configurable EC, replaceable components, etc. That would be a dream.

[jpetso]

This is what makes newer ThinkPad keyboard layouts great at least in terms of arrow keys - the useless icon keys from the GP's posted image are now PgUp/PgDown, meaning you can access at least two out of the four without annoying two-handed operation. Home/End can still be bound to arrow keys plus modifier, but even there it's nice to have a dedicated key available.

Basically, full-size arrow keys are what really makes the difference, and at that point you could get the best of both worlds anyway.

(Let's not talk about other recent/misguided ThinkPad keyboard developments though.)

[Liskni_si]

I actually use those "useless" keys (back/forward in the browser) more often than PgUp/PgDown, as I usually scroll using the touchpad.

But it doesn't really matter, as long as the physical keys are there. They can be remapped.

[jpetso]

Never said they were useless! I also use them all the time. There is, however, only space for two extra keys in the holes of the four-arrow layout.

[eightails]

This is one of the reasons I actually really like the Surface Book keyboard [0]. It has home/end/pageup/pagedown as primary keys in the fn row, where they all fall to hand just by moving your right hand up from the home row.

Key size and placement is generally pretty perfect for the size imo (backspace, shift, enter, etc aren't cramped), and key travel and feel is up there with the best.

The up/down arrow keys and lack of brightness control in the fn row are the only real problems.

[0] https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/IMG_3...

[layer8]

Full-sized (full-height!) F keys, full-sized inverted-T arrow keys, dedicated Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys, and the Menu key (as on the Thinkpad) would be ideal.

[wishinghand]

At this point I'd prefer few keys, just 18 per side for my fingers and a row of 4-6 for each of my thumbs. I'd handle numbers, function keys, volume, and whatever else you mentioned with layers.

[layer8]

Those keys already have their own layers in a lot of software. Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory.

[wishinghand]

> Having to press yet another additional modifier key destroys usability and muscle memory

I'm far more comfortable moving my fingers and thumbs as little as possible rather than having to stretch far and wide for those extra function keys.

[layer8]

For me it’s the opposite: I get RSI from having to stretch my hands to press 2-3 modifiers simultaneously, whereas moving my hands a bit is no problem.

[rplnt]

While I agree with you one the F keys and home block, I also understand that's something that people might not prefer.

What I don't understand are the arrows. I've been using MB Pro daily for over 3 years now and I still regularly miss up/down arrows. I would never buy a device that merges them into size of one key as the MB Pro does, as well as this one.

[nine_k]

I'm a big fan of Thinkpad keyboards, too.

But am I the only person considering a split ergonomic layout with thumb clusters, to give your pinkies some rest? The touchpad could live between the keyboard halves, and never be touched by mistake.

I wonder if that could be an option.

[croh]

haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?

[Liskni_si]

Fn position is obviously configurable. I have ctrl/fn swapped, but plenty of people don't, and that's fine. (And then plently of people have ctrl on capslock, which is also fine. I couldn't get used to it.)

[m463]

I think if you could buck the "flat thin keys" trend you would probably develop lots of customers for life.

Thin and flat has nice visual appeal, but I think you should approach it from a tactile direction.

My ideal keyboard would have a little extra throw, and they keys would be sculpted to match the curve of your fingertips for comfort and to help you center on the keys.

I think the thinkpad keyboards were favorites for a reason.

[tomtheelder]

No buttons is clearly the logical choice. I can't imagine it would be worth building a three button version to satisfy that miniscule niche.

[accelbred]

Are they mechanical keys?

[wishinghand]

It's strange to see a complaint about the Apple trackpad, because whenever I use a non-Apple laptop, I despair at the trackpad. The current design is too large, but the pre-USB-C models had a perfect size and UX. I haven't ever experienced an equal.

[GordonS]

The Apple trackpad seems to be really polarising - I often this see on HN: fans surprised anyone would dislike it, and opponents surprised anyone would like it!

Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I have a 13" MBP, and find the buttons need way too much pressure, even with the sensitivity ramped up. There's also something I can't quantify... there's a feeling of it being laggy, and somehow "unpleasant" to drag my finger across. I prefer just about every other trackpad I've ever used, even those in dirt cheap netbooks.

[krrrh]

“Buttons”

Not sure if we’re talking about the same thing with that plural, but the first thing I change on a new Mac is enabling tap to click. It works great and you can avoid the annoyance of the audible click.

The second thing is to enable three finger drag, which the moves into Accessibility settings about 5 years ago.

[erikpukinskis]

Yes, all that. And then turn the sensitivity up to max.

[codezero]

I suspect it has something to do with their typing habits and/or some physical issue.

Personally, the newest Macbooks became a problem for me despite the history of amazing palm rejection on Macbooks, I have sort of sweaty hands and when they increased the trackpad size, that combined with how I type (palm resting on the chassis, not raised), it causes a lot of jitter (I say a lot, it's super rare, but just enough to train me away from it) and I've ended up using an external mouse exclusively, but in the past year, uh, I haven't been mobile so that's just a nonissue :)

[ppezaris]

not intending to start an apple-vs-msft flamewar, but this has been a solved problem on the mac since forever. is the experience that bad on windows laptops that you don't want a big trackpad? genuine question.

[yunyu]

It is for Synaptics drivers (some manufacturers like Dell, Razer, HP used to default to those) but not for precision touchpad drivers (what's used in the Surfaces).

[freeone3000]

yeah. you definitely want palm detection off or it'll miss a good deal of swipes (if you mix typing and mousing). with palm detection off, you need the touchpad to be slightly offset to the left and small enough that it fits between your hands at rest.

[dcow]

In my experience trackpad and touch support on Windows has improved immensely since the introduction of the Surface. I recall the experience you’re describing but associate it with the 2010-2015 era .