5k per month is 60k per year. A typical developer makes at least 100k per year in the US; but if you are only support yourself then you can easily live on 40k per year outside of SV and a few other high-rent areas. The math checks out. And sending 60% of your salary back home is something that plenty of people do.
It seems that US citizens already pay more than a typical european country with free health care [1]. So they just getting billed from something they already payed for and they are indoctrinated to think that this is normal.
I actually did compare the retirement/disability payouts to one European country at one point (a Scandinavian country - Norway I think) and the US was comparable. Shocking I know. Sure the US doesn’t have the same extent of programs, but acting like US has nothing is just fake news.
And no, the education doesn’t cost $40k (that was my point) and the higher salary easily offsets the loans for a lot of careers.
And no, there are plenty of good paying jobs in the US, not just tech (I’m not in tech).
I think it pretty much evens out for the average person - not a tech high earner but not someone living on benefits either.
In Europe the average salary is 1695 Euros (2050 USD) a month, while in America it is 2136 Euros (2594 USD).
In Europe we have free healthcare and mostly free* education. So on paper it evens out on the long run.
But in Europe we have diverse countries - the top tier are having it better than the US, while the bottom tier are having it much worse.
For example, Bulgarians earn an average salary of a measly 550 Euros (667 USD).
Yeah, when your government doesn’t take money from your pocket to pay for and give you "free" stuff, you end up with more you can then decide to spend as you need. Who would’ve thought?!
I know it's hard to imagine this if you've never experienced it, but be a little tolerable to the parts of the world where this happens, including where I'm leaving in right now
I actually live in the EU, and I lived in a communist country before so I have enough experience with your "dream". Sooner or later it turns into a nightmare.
As Margaret Thatcher said, the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
It’s indeed a hard point to get across when you’ve been indoctrinated (we all are about something) that leaving it to the government is a better option. For example, people in Europe obsess about retirement plans, but rarely consider the possibility for creating their own private future financial plan.
Yeah, I have one of those (compulsory) retirement plans. Even if it's tax-free, its yield is incredibly crappy compared to my own (very conservative) investments in broad index ETFs.
I would gladly put ALL my savings into my own retirement plan instead of the government's money hole if I was allowed. But I am robbed of that choice...
Because some people just can't. It's nice and easy when we are closed in our tech bubble, but it's not so good for everyone else.
I'll gladly pay my taxes knowing that the current retired people that didn't have the possibility to save up, can survive today. Also hoping that happens to me in case a horrible thing happens to my financial situation.
It’s not an all or nothing question, I just highlighted where the thinking tends to go towards here in Europe. Not saying eliminate retirement plans, but also take into account your financial future if you can. Have that as a goal.
After experiencing both thought systems as an outsider (I'm neither European nor American) it feels like American system wants to win life and European system wants to live life. I honestly do not want to create my own financial future plans. I find investing and dealing with my own money incredibly stressful and distracting. I do not care for investing nor do I want to care. I want a guarantee that I will have a minimum lifestyle and the time saved can be used to enjoy right now.
People like me, who take stress when it comes to such things, love European system but people who find it trivial to invest in markets and such find the American system better. I wonder how many people think like me and how many like Americans. I have met Americans who don't think like what I just categorized as the American mindset, and European which are opposite to. So I really cant just take the populations and answer my own question.
Well, that's almost enough to match the median household income in the US ($68k) so you probably don't want to extrapolate too far from what they make.
You’d be surprised how rich a society can be with a high IQ demographics, low taxes (I.e. barriers), and free enterprise. In Europe, landlocked no-oil Switzerland is a good example of this.
The average IQ in the U.S.A and the E.U is roughly the same[1][2]. The tax rate is also very similar [3]. Salaries can also vary a lot. If a tech worker in SF can have a salary that dwarf most of its EU colleague, a minimum-wage worker is often going to have a better salary and benefit in the E.U (although it vary a lot per-country basis and the same can be said with states in the U.S.A).
If I didn’t include the intelligence caveat, one could point out lower tax countries with less opportunity, such as how Somalia is the anarcho capitalists dream. Even if the US and Switzerland are more economically free than many other more socialist western nations, intelligent demographics is makes or breaks that effect.
The average American also makes more than the average European - not only in SF. In more economically free European countries this is not the case though, but these are few. Except for the highly regulated (thus inefficient) American Heath insurance market, having a regular job is a better deal there.
The things you mentioned aren't what make Switzerland a rich society.
In my experience living here, it is the strong social security net (70% of your previous wage if unemployed), high minimum wage (up to 25$/hr in some areas), and general workers rights/protections.
None of those are unique to Switzerland but it’s a lot richer than any of its neighbors. The policies you describe don’t cause wealth. They’re things you can afford once you’re wealthy. If Kerala adopted those policies they’d either be widely flouted outside the formal sector (at best) or destroy the economy.
"some areas" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence of yours. First of all, there is no Federal minimum wage, it is Cantonal. Second of all, the minimum wage of 20CHF only exists in 2 Cantons: Jura and Neuchatel. Third of all, once you PPP adjust that number, it's equivalent to about $10 USD/hour.
Switzerland has the unique advantage of having staid neutral since somewhat 500 years which means their wealth never got plundered or destroyed in one of the way too many wars that have plagued Europe since then. Their neutrality status, combined with a long tradition of utmost banking secrecy, also made Switzerland a perfect "safe harbor" for lots of foreign dark money of all kinds - from kingdoms, warlords and other dictatorships to seemingly "non-profit" corrupt entities such as FIFA, not to mention ordinary European rich wanting to hide their money from the taxman.
tl;dr: Switzerland got rich because of staying neutral and not asking questions about where incoming money originates from, not because of "free enterprise".
By that reason my nation the Swedes should be as rich as the Swiss, or more, since we have minerals and export a lot of wood. Sweden too has been neutral for hundreds of years. The demographics (of native Swedes) are similar in intelligence, a highly inheritable trait, as the Swiss, so that is not the differentiation.
But instead Sweden chose the way of high tax on high income, high capital gains tax (which is zero in Switzerland), and a big “public sector” in order to make a large section of the people dependent on the state. The effect is fewer rich people who can invest in new companies, and more investment done via the state, which is inherently less efficient
Swiss neutrality post dates Napoleon’s fall. It’s barely 200 years old, not 500. And Switzerland would be rich without banking. It wasn’t (much) richer than its neighbors before WW2. Not getting bombed into rubble and banking secrecy gold are great but S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and Hong Kong show there’s more than one way for a well governed country to get rich, starting from poverty.
I compare CH to Norway - 0.19% wealth tax in Zürich vs 1.8% in Norway, 0% capital gains tax in CH vs 20% in NO, 8% VAT in Zürich vs 25% in NO, zero natural resources in CH, massive amounts of oil in NO. After that, there is a manyfold greater chance for someone in CH to make a better wage and to save up a million $. Economic freedom is lifting the tide on which all boats sail.
Valid point, but Spain is also neutral but isn't exactly bursting at the seams with pots of gold.
They used to be the wealthiest out there, but I guess they took a few bad turns.
Just saying staying neutral doesn't automatically make a country (stay) wealthy.
Singapore also does not have a capital gains tax and much more than other countries respects the natural right to ownership. If you with force go against the natural right to life, liberty, and property, you are punished with inefficiency.
