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by jz 5492 days ago
Background: http://sheddingbikes.com/posts/1306816425.html

In all fairness, the guy was being a dick (no pun intended) to Zed. However, Zed should have kept the insults to the troll and left Github, Powerset, Engine Yard, and the Ruby community out.

3 comments

How does anyone in the Ruby "community" have the time to get any actual work done?

No other language community in the world behaves like this.

The value proposition of the Ruby community has more to do with their mindshare than their technical merit.

Compare and contrast Scientology with Psychiatry. Both communities make similar value propositions: improve mental health.

Scientology is optimized to gain and keep converts and to spread like a viral meme.

Psychiatry is optimized to achieve good treatment outcomes.

Scientology makes more money despite being a less effective form of therapy.

Virality itself is adaptive, so the Ruby community thrives and survives despite being a mediocre technology. Everything about ruby is optimized for gaining converts, attention and cohesion. Hard technical merit is less important in this case than community cohesion, growth, and publicity. Flamewars bring the ruby community publicity and this leads to growth which leads to the survival and replication of ruby.

Erlang and C++ survive on hard technical merits. They take a different evolutionary strategy that requires less propaganda / groupthink.

Just look at the life cycle of communities as if they were a species and it all makes sense.

Scientology makes more money [than the field of psychiatry].

This seems really questionable to me. If we assume 13 psychiatrists per 100K people in 2005 ( http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=523453 ), and just count Europe and the US, that's ~80K psychiatrists, and if they average 120K USD per year, that's nearly 10 billion USD. Scientology had a worldwide income of less than 400 million in 1993 ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jD-Xo-q... ), so it would have had to grow by 20 times to rival psychiatry circa 2005.

I think psychiatry (leaving aside everything but actual practicing psychiatrists) probably dwarfs Scientology in total income.

Yeah you're right. I think at one point Scientology may have been richer, but they have gone downhill it seems.
The same way the Open Source "community" has time to get actual work done - real developers do it while the trolls mess around.
But where are the Erlang trolls or the C++ trolls? They don't exist!
I don't know about the Erlang trolls, but the C++ trolls are out writing shitty internal corporate apps for Windows, leaving no source and forcing a company to use the buggy app in perpetuity.

Real trolls ship.

But they are presumably not bitching about each other on the Interwebs?
To be fair, I DID destroy Zed Shaw with my awesome troll skills.

Oh wait, he did that shit to himself while I watched.

I've been trolled by people in lots of different "communities." PHP, Postgres, Java, Perl and Lua just to name a few. IMHO if a software community doesn't have jerks and trolls, it's because nobody is using the software. Ruby has its share but I don't find it any worse than the others.
The Ruby community didn't behave this way before 2005 or so.
What happened then? Just re-read Zed's "Ghetto" article, and he seems to imply that there was a sudden influx of PHP users.
There was a sudden influx of Rails users in 2005.
I guess he felt that others besides the troll were having a laugh at his expense, (i.e., the HN Tips guys comments, other penis-oriented repos connected to employees of aforementioned companies) and were, if only indirectly, in on the joke.
Yep, that's what people seem to gloss over when they think I just overreacted. I knew for a fact that several Ruby people considered this hilarious, and that one or more of them worked at github. In that situation, it's either I leave silently (which everyone thinks I should have done), or bring the issue up and make sure everyone knows what's going on. I prefer the latter because it at least lets others come behind me and avoid the problem.

Thankfully, they've fixed the problem now and I don't have to worry about it anymore.

You and others which may have been trolled before and did not "make a fuss". I see many here with a bully mentality, saying that one should just keep their head down and endure the trolls crap and they will go away. Except they won't.
That's a pretty lucid and well written account. I would like to know more about the connection between HackerNewsTips and Github though. Github employees have denied it here on HN.
As a paying customer of github, I'd like to know, too. If there is a link, I am deeply disappointed and believe this is exceedingly unprofessional.
We've responded multiple times that we have nothing to do with that account. In this thread just a couple of pages up, in fact: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2606408

We haven't shouted this from the rooftops primarily because we're tired of this being the story when it should have focused on the bullying and our addressing of the problem.