[Bakary]

This is another reminder that we have some of the negative aspects of a cyberpunk future without the cool empowering hacking parts.

I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here.

[chordalkeyboard]

> Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here.

Many of us don’t like unions. We consider them to be parasitic organizations that pervert the employer-employee-customer relationship without adding value. In fact, by twisting a business so that it is run for the benefit of the employees instead of for the mutual benefit of employees, employer, and customers, they destroy value. What is worse, unions have a nasty habit of convincing the government to make laws that effectively give the union a monopoly on certain kinds of tasks, preventing other workers from competing.

Now you may not agree with this perspective and its certainly something that people should discuss rather than accept uncritically. But have you considered that you’re so unfamiliar with the actual case against unions that you have trouble imagining how someone could make a website opposing them without being dead inside because you’ve only been exposed to pro-union arguments?

[heterodoxxed]

> you’re so unfamiliar with the actual case against unions

How can the average American worker be so unfamiliar with the case against unions? We are inundated with anti-union propaganda practically from birth. Barely any of us are unionized, corporations have gone to the ends of the earth to disempower or dismantle unions for the past 40-50 years, and you hardly ever hear any pro-union narrative outside of union organizers and the left.

I have heard the arguments against unions so many times I can recite them by heart. I've had posters up in my workplace, I've had to watch anti-union videos before even applying for jobs and I've had comments like yours pushed all over anything that even mentions unions.

The idea that someone is pro-union because they've never heard the arguments against unions beggars belief.

[chordalkeyboard]

> How can the average American worker be so unfamiliar with the case against unions? We are inundated with anti-union propaganda practically from birth.

I disagree on the pervasiveness of anti-union propaganda. Perhaps this is your experience, it has not been mine.

> Barely any of us are unionized, corporations have gone to the ends of the earth to disempower or dismantle unions for the past 40-50 years, and you hardly ever hear any pro-union narrative outside of union organizers and the left.

Barely any of us are amateur radio operators and you never hear about amateur radio from anyone except preppers and geeks, but it isn’t because of inundation of anti-ham-radio propaganda from birth, merely that most people aren’t aware that ham radio could fulfill any of their needs.

> I have heard the arguments against unions so many times I can recite them by heart. I've had posters up in my workplace, I've had to watch anti-union videos before even applying for jobs and I've had comments like yours pushed all over anything that even mentions unions.

Thats your experience. But I bet you didn’t wonder that each and every person who propagandized you were dead inside. Rather you eventually became aware that some of them had their own beliefs based on their own perspectives that led them to their anti-union work.

> The idea that someone is pro-union because they've never heard the arguments against unions beggars belief.

As does the idea that someone could only make anti-union website if they were dead inside, but we like to assume good faith when people make statements and keep our cynicism to ourselves when possible.

[heterodoxxed]

> if they were dead inside

I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me as if I were.

> Thats your experience

Yes, that's my experience. My experience is extremely common.

Have you not worked any blue collar or service jobs?

[chordalkeyboard]

I have, I’ve been a welder/fabricator, a machine operator, a forklift driver, and a temp. I’ve seen anti-union propaganda. I’ve seen pro-union propaganda. And I’m familiar enough with the discourse that I don’t wonder why anyone chooses what they choose. And there are evil parasites on both sides. But rarely do I see people acknowledge the arguments of the other side, usually just calling them parasites.

> I'm not the original poster, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me as if I were.

This whole ting started because they said that how could someone do that unless they were dead inside which I inferred to mean they hadn’t been exposed to any reasons why someone would do that, and you couldn’t believe that anyone would be unaware as to the legitimate rational case against unions based on workers’ interests. So I observed that you didn’t share the same reaction as the original commenter when you were exposed to the propaganda.

[heterodoxxed]

> I’ve seen anti-union propaganda.

You yourself haven't even had the experience of going through life without seeing a significant amount of anti-union propaganda. Yet you believe there are people who miraculously have.

[comex]

Perhaps there are plausible anti-union arguments out there, but this Amazon website isn't making them. Instead we get text like this:

> IF YOU’RE PAYING DUES… it will be RESTRICTIVE meaning it won’t be easy to be as helpful and social with each other. So be a DOER, stay friendly and get things done versus paying dues.

It's impossible for me to imagine that anyone involved in drafting that text actually believed it was a meaningful argument.

[chordalkeyboard]

Yeah that jumped out at me but it was probably a poorly phrased attempt at referring to the changes inherent in a unionized workplace. Like restrictions on how much work a person is allowed to do and conflict between employees who pay dues and employees who do not pay dues.

> It's impossible for me to imagine that anyone involved in drafting that text actually believed it was a meaningful argument.

You’re probably being hyperbolic but this lack of charity is one reason why we can’t have nice things.

[Bakary]

If you look at the website, it's not the mere fact that it's against unions that is disturbing. That's an ideological point of view that doesn't strike me as unusual. In fact, it's pretty rational to be anti-union if you are among those who stand to profit from that, just like people who can profit from unions will naturally be interested in one and will align most of their ideology with that.

It's the sheer cynicism, condescension, accidental self-parody, and other design choices of that website that make me wonder about the people behind it. It's a postmodern cocktail of horror. Nowhere do they make a good faith attempt to lay out solid anti-union arguments.

[La1n]

>In fact, by twisting a business so that it is run for the benefit of the employees instead of for the mutual benefit of employees, employer, and customers, they destroy value.

An union negotiates/help negotiate, an employer would never run it's business if there was no benefit for them. Do you really believe that unions make it so only employees and not the employer benefit?

[chordalkeyboard]

> Do you really believe that unions make it so only employees and not the employer benefit?

If the employer doesn’t accrue some marginal benefit, he’ll liquidate his investment if he is able. So he has to get something, and a good parasite will make sure not to kill the host.

[La1n]

You could say the exact same from the employers side. They would love to pay people nothing if they could, but they need to make sure the employee gains the minimum benefit to keep them working.

[chordalkeyboard]

Exactly. So the employee negotiates the highest wage that he can, and the employer negotiates the lowest wage that he can, and they arrive at an acceptable wage.

[ineedasername]

without the cool empowering hacking parts

You say that now, but what about when Amazon starts encouraging employees to replace their arms with pneumatic forklift tines?

[decebalus1]

> I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job?

I suggest you hang around Blind for a bit and you'll realize that some of our techie colleagues hold some.. interesting opinions about labor or about how much to pay workers we now consider 'essential'

[pbourke]

I would urge you not to join Blind if you consider yourself reasonably comfortable with your perception of your coworkers. It will change.

[decebalus1]

Blind is very toxic. It's one of apps I install rarely, only when needed (something is happening at work or to gauge offers) just for mental health reasons. It's unbelievable what people are comfortable sharing under anonymity. HOWEVER, it's one of the only places in tech where the koolaid is called out for what it is and nobody pretends to be happy. It's an island of sincerity.

[Bakary]

I am not in the tech world, but reading through HN has been more than enough to understand exactly what you mean. Ultimately, people's opinions will change depending on what increases their material conditions at the expense of other groups, and I am no different in that regard.

[LMYahooTFY]

>I wonder about the sort of person who would design such a website. Surely you'd have to be dead inside to create such an abomination, even if it's just a job? I am not trying to be hyperbolic here.

Though I disagree with Amazon's official arguments, I'm even more opposed to the notion that anyone who agrees with them is dead inside.

[Bakary]

It's not about the actual fact of being against unions, but the website itself. A self-parody

[sosodev]

A lot of people believe their corporations when they say "unions are bad for everybody"

[julienreszka]

It's not difficult to find many regular people who hate unions vehemently. I would be angry too is someone spoke in my name without my consent.

[C19is20]

You must be angry a lot - and often, too.

[julienreszka]

This isn't true. Why would you think so?

[chordalkeyboard]

Probably they assume that you live somewhere where the government (or someone else) is regularly claiming to speak for you.