[eganist]

> Would a better aim be that any person can choose, or choose not, to proffer their pronouns, and feel equally comfortable either way?

How do you mitigate the risk of minimal usage of pronouns by cis persons compared to non-cis folks? That's where the challenge lies - outsized non-cis usage of pronouns exposes them to hatred by those with bias, hence the desire for usage by cis folk.

[proactivesvcs]

I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. But inferring hatred strikes me as a very acute form of assuming bad-faith.

I treat strangers with the assumption that they are respectful until they earn an opinion to the contrary.

[eganist]

> I am not sure what risk you mean here and I struggle to see how a rational person can infer that I mean hatred when I introduce myself as "proactivesvcs", "Adam" or "Mr Piggott". I think that yes, everyone should feel that they can offer their pronouns, unsolicited, and I believe that we should encourage that this is an acceptable behaviour, since then eventually, it'll be something we don't even have to discuss. But inferring hatred strikes me as a very acute form of assuming bad-faith.

Ah, from what I'm reading, it doesn't seem that my message registered. Let me try conveying it another way.

Taylor Jones introduces herself with the pronouns she/they to a new group of friends. The new group of friends is unaccustomed to forward declaration of pronouns, and among them, a few in the group perceive Taylor as being different from themselves as a consequence of their unfamiliarity with pronoun declaration. Thus begins the Othering of Taylor. (Othering: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/other-as-a-ver...)

On the flip side, Taylor Jones introduces herself with the pronouns she/they to a group of friends who all then share their own pronouns for the sake of clarity. Because this practice is ingrained in the group already, it's less likely that some in the group would perceive Taylor as being "Other" to them.

Does this help?

[proactivesvcs]

I'm with you now. If we all open with pronouns, it speeds up the acceptance as a societal norm.

I am not going to argue with you because I'm not sure there is much of an argument, heh, but I have a strong suspicion that if I were to have offered pronouns in the last say, 30 introductions I made in person, most of the other parties would be baffled, ask why, then may think they have to coach their language around me. I hope we'd both agree it may carry a certain stigma with it. As it happens if I walked in the door of a customer the second time and she said "Ah, the ginger menace returns!" I would laugh and tell her that she better believe it, having taken no offence. Perhaps I'm making a false equivalence here to excuse my current viewpoint?

[eganist]

I mean, you've basically nailed the challenge:

> if I were to have offered pronouns in the last say, 30 introductions I made in person, most of the other parties would be baffled, ask why, then may think they have to coach their language around me.

This is exactly what we're trying to correct. And while you may (I'm assuming this is in reference to you) be able to weather the "ginger menace" remark, I'm not sure how well that translates elsewhere.

To wit: I once had a new friend call me a terrorist in a similar manner to the aforementioned "ginger menace" introduction after a few times of having met. That was the last time we spent time together.

I feel pretty odd using the phrase in quotes. Mind if I stop? I recognize it's probably not offensive to you, but I hesitate continuing to use it.

[proactivesvcs]

Apologies for being a bit unclear. I have red hair, which in British colloquy is known as "ginger". Some take offence to the term, others revel in it as we love our hair colour. I am firmly in the latter camp and my some of my friends adopted the nickname I once gave to myself of "ginger menace" :-)

My use of this was to show that I take no offence at someone using one of my attributes as part of my identity.

[eganist]

Fair, fair. A childhood friend of mine was repeatedly bullied for having red hair, so I've become particularly sensitive to it.