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by pdimitar 1987 days ago
From the article:

> Anyway, it’s been a while, the world is a different place now, and maybe Hanlon’s razor cuts deeper than I thought.

How else would you interpret it?

3 comments

“This looks like a backdoor but if I think really hard maybe I can consider it to be incompetence?”

Neither is a good look for a security team, of course.

Yes, it's not, but my (and his) point stands: it's likely incompetence. It's very biased and uncharitable to immediately assume malice.
>(and his) point stands: it's likely incompetence

That’s not what the post is saying.

> It's very biased and uncharitable

It’s not “very biased”, if you actually look at what Telegram did the balance of probabilities leans heavily towards “backdoor” and not “not backdoor”

So, give me your definition of Hanlon's Razor then (mentioned at the end of the article by the author).
I think you’re completely missing the nuance in the words surrounding the authors mention of “Hanlon’s razor”.

Besides, look at Pavel Durovs flagkilled reply here. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

That's not saying anything of substance unless you offer your own interpretation. "You're wrong" is not a discussion, it's a kick in the gut.

> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Solid criticism with well laid-out arguments from you, no doubt.

> Besides, look at Pavel Durovs flagkilled reply here.

Since when do upvote / downvote count mean anything at all about somebody's opinion or statements? (I haven't read the comment though.)

Look, it's obvious you have a beef with Telegram / Durov. But you are not giving any arguments, only snark. That's breaking HN's guidelines last I checked.

I certainly hope that’s not the real Pavel Durov…
The author is saying "maybe things that look A WHOLE LOT like malice are actually incompetence". It's pretty clear that he thinks it's a backdoor, even though he basically says "maybe in actually wrong, but I really don't think so".
Sure, sadly that's how human languages betray us. Plus, him emphasising "a whole lot" doesn't make it a fact.

I am no cryptography expert. I judge by all the times I've seen programmers imagine they could do professional cryptography by themselves. Literally every time they fail. Thus, in my eyes it is more likely that Telegram's coders fell victim to the same illusion.

But I am not denying that it's possible it's the [beginnings of a] backdoor. The whole sub-thread is (a) my opinion on what's more likely and (b) calling out people who act snarky, offer no facts and demonstrate general negative bias.

s/likely/unlikely but possibly/
Well, that's how probabilities work and I am not seeing your rephrasing as adding anything valuable to that discussion.

Unless you put concrete % numbers on both sides then your replace is identical with the original.

Oh, please, this is not a math inequality where we compare with numbers. It is plain to any English speaker that what was written in the article and how you represented it differ significantly in the confidence that they communicate. As such, your continued insistence that there is no major difference between the two comes off as extremely poor faith.
You might be missing that many people here might not be native English speakers. As such, being crystal clear on what the author believes might be beneficial. Just putting "hey I might be wrong" in the end of an article is just word-padding and since I assumed the author doesn't do that, I entertain the possibility they mentioned seriously.

...Bad faith? Most of HN has bad faith when it comes to Telegram. This place devolves to Reddit / 9GAG levels of childishness when Telegram is mentioned.

I think that's quite fascinating and it's a strange outlier. Yes -- strange, as in "not justified". They did nothing more wrong than a ton of other, much more widely used software, yet any mention of Telegram on HN brings about a big bandwagon of haters. Why do you think that is?

Hanlon’s Razor says to never assume malice where stupidity suffices as an explanation. The only way I read this sentence is to say that Hanlon’s Razor applies here, in-spite of how malicious the bug looks.
Same for me. While others argue that it's "obvious" that the author believes much more strongly that this find is a backdoor and not a dumb mistake (a very easy one to make for a non-cryptographer programmer), I am still unconvinced.

Would be curious to read a statement from Telegram's team though -- not that any team would ever admit to putting a backdoor...

Paraphrasing Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from a backdoor."