[barbacoa]

People spent years de-legitimatizing the 2016 election by claiming that Trump colluded with the Russian government. There were even stories published by mainstream media outlets that Russians hack election machines.

The other side undermining the election results after they lost is not exactly new.

[wnissen]

The difference is that there are 250 million documented user engagements with confirmed Russian propaganda pages. Those are the numbers provided directly from Facebook: 76 million on Facebook and 187 million on Instagram. That's a lot of likes, comments and shares.

Page 48. https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...

[fredophile]

There is a huge difference between saying "the winning campaign worked with a foreign government to spread disinformation" and "the votes were rigged. If you ignore the fraudulent ballots I won in a landslide."

There's also a long running argument in American politics about voter registration. Over the years both sides have had victories but after the elections no one claims the results of those elections were fraudulent.

[newacct583]

Sacking the Capitol Building to prevent certification of an election is certainly new, though. I remain horrified at the level to which republicans genuinely think these situations are equivalent.

[incrudible]

It wasn't a sacking. There was trespassing and a couple of smashed windows. These are the worst images that CNN could find:

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/gallery/electora...

There are two ways forward: We make a really big deal out of this and therefore implicitly demand that protests should be suppressed with massive force. Alternatively, we can admit that this is about as peaceful an outcome as we could have possibly hoped for, all things considered.

[newacct583]

How exactly do you define sacking?

They pushed past armed guards, broke barriers, entered the chambers of an active joint session of congress forcing the entirety of the USA legislative branch and its Vice President at the very moment they were certifying a presidential election into a secure bunker.

... and you think that's "about as peaceful an outcome as we could possibly have hoped for"?

I genuinely don't understand. This is the kind of operation of government that is supposed to never be disruptible. If past mobs knew it was this easy then we could have had a zillion coups by now.

You're saying they weren't murderers I guess? That they didn't blow up the building or take hostages (though there is footage of a guy with zip ties that looks like he wanted to)? I mean, yeah, that would be worse. This is still unimaginably bad.

[awnird]

The insurrectionists were murderers though.

https://twitter.com/kristin__wilson/status/13473283250191646...

[incrudible]

> How exactly do you define sacking?

I'll go with this one, from Cambridge Dictionary:

"an attack on a building or town in which a lot of destruction is caused and many valuable things are stolen"

> ... and you think that's "about as peaceful an outcome as we could possibly have hoped for"?

Yes, as peaceful as we could have hoped for, considering that many of these people believe a satanic cult has undermined the US government and defrauded their rightful president out of a second term.

> I genuinely don't understand. This is the kind of operation of government that is supposed to never be disruptible. If past mobs knew it was this easy then we could have had a zillion coups by now.

You don't automatically achieve a coup by entering some building and interrupting some bureaucratic process, no matter how symbolic it may be. Biden got elected.

> This is still unimaginably bad.

You must lack imagination.

[newacct583]

Just to take this one bit:

> You don't automatically achieve a coup by entering some building and interrupting some bureaucratic process

Sorry, but that's EXACTLY how coups work in the real world. You disrupt the government in such a way that the rule of law fails. In fact, it's been reported that at least one Trump goal was to push certification out beyond the 11 day (I think, details are fuzzy) deadline in the electoral count act and force the house to decide.

You're simply saying that it didn't work. But that's down as much to luck (a smallish crowd and multiple barriers to cross) and architecture (cold war escape tunnels) as it is to anything fundamental. It is VERY easy to imagine an alternate universe where Pelosi and Pence are still being held hostage right now.

[incrudible]

> Sorry, but that's EXACTLY how coups work in the real world. You disrupt the government in such a way that the rule of law fails.

Come on. Rule of law doesn't stop working just because a couple of politicians don't get to sign papers on schedule. If it was that easy, the country wouldn't last a month without a successful coup.

> In fact, it's been reported that at least one Trump goal was to push certification out beyond the 11 day (I think, details are fuzzy) deadline in the electoral count act and force the house to decide.

I'd think the supreme court would have to decide if that's constitutional. If it is, then it's a crazy legal loophole and Trump would just be the first to exploit it.

> You're simply saying that it didn't work.

No. I'm saying that this "insurrection" is being blown out of proportion. Biden is elected. Trump has called his goons home.

> It is VERY easy to imagine an alternate universe where Pelosi and Pence are still being held hostage right now.

Sure, but moving forward, should we judge these people by what one might imagine could have happened, not what actually happened? I don't think so.

[dmitriid]

Hillary Clinton conceded she lost the very next day. There was an orderly transition process from Obama to Trump that started on the second day after the election. Compare that "undermining" to what the GOP and Trump are doing.

[zaroth]

Hardy ordinary though, for the FBI to orchestrate false charges and spy on the incoming administration with fraudulent FISA warrants.

They are both very wrong, in different ways.

[dmitriid]

--- start quote ---

On December 9, 2019, Horowitz released his report on the findings of the DOJ OIG investigation. The OIG found no indication that the investigation of Trump and Russia was motivated by political bias, but did make 17 "basic and fundamental" errors and omissions in its warrant applications to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) to surveil Carter Page, a foreign policy adviser on the Trump campaign.[160][5][161][162][163] The report found that the FBI's investigation had a factual basis and was initiated for an authorized purpose,[162] stating: "We did not find documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation influenced" the agency's decision to open the investigation

--- end quote ---

What else?

Ah, I also remember Obama calling for months that the election was stolen, inciting violence, calling for forceful removal of government officials and obstructing transition teams. I also remember Obama refusing to commit to a peaceful transition of power until after his supporters stormed the Capitol and his own party (just as complicit) turned against him and certified election results.

[barbacoa]

Or that time Obama had a sit down meeting with heads of the FBI and directed them to go after Trump's national security adviser in order to get Flynn "arrested or fired".

[upbeat_general]

I don’t know of any mainstream stories about actual votes being changed/hacked but there’s tons of evidence that Russia hacked state voter databases and manipulated online media for their benefit. We also have significant evidence that the trump campaign tried to collide with Russia (he even published those self incriminating emails on Twitter).

Few people cast doubt on the votes themselves however in 2016 and that Trump was the legitimate winner.

In this case there is zero evidence of widespread voter fraud after being litigated through the courts and acknowledgement as such by many republican Secretaries of State, senators, etc.

[adamsea]

Honest question - do you really believe the two situations are equivalent?

[barbacoa]

Are they equivalent? No.

This is a clear escalation but the escalation is due to the deteriorating of our political discourse. I would not have been surprised if we saw something similar if Trump had won a 2nd term.

[adamsea]

> I would not have been surprised if we saw something similar if Trump had won a 2nd term.

When you say similar, what do you mean? An armed mob breaking in to the Capital to stop Congress from certifying the electoral college votes and the President-elect? Requiring the evacuation of the entire Congress and the Vice-President to ensure their safety and avoid a potential hostage situation? And then planting pipe bombs in the Capital?

Or do you mean something else?

[EDIT: Look. Let’s be real. There is not a semblance of similarity and there hasn’t been for the past four years. What we saw today was unprecedented and seditious, on the part of the mob, the President himself, and anyone else involved in the planning or execution of this attempted coup. And anyone who can’t see the truth needs to do a real hard gut check right now, no joke.

Let’s also be real. White supremacists are in the minority and their numbers are dwindling. Their days are numbered. There’s more of us than them and at some point if they push hard enough all of us patriotic American citizens who actually respect the Constitution and the vision of justice the United States, at its best, represents, well, we will push back.

These folks lost the Civil War. If they really do want to bring it, it’ll be a tragedy and waste of human life, and, it won’t be a war they’ll win.

And any Trumpists, at this point, go fuck yourselves. You should be ashamed of the treasonous behavior you’ve enabled.

That’s the real talk, and people who hate on it, hate on it because they recognize the truth - you know it deep down, and, you are ashamed of yourselves.

Consider your actions. Anyone can change for the better, as difficult and unpleasant as the process is, it’s always worth the effort.

If I was religious like that I’d pray for you, because you don’t even know how badly you need some forgiveness.]