[spoonjim]

“Terroir” is just marketing gobbledygook, just like they once said that California wines would never compete with French wines. Get a plant the right climate and nutrients and the fruit will produce well. No mysticism to it.

[Melting_Harps]

> “Terroir” is just marketing gobbledygook

A lot of it is definitely blatant Marketing, but having been in the culinary Industry and tasted countless wines from various regions their is definitely a reason why that phrase to describe a certain experience has persisted. Certain Pinot Noirs from various regions taste, smell and feel unique in your mouth and accentuate a dish differently than others.

And I'm not a wine snob by any means; I usually just drink whatever is Organic or preferably Biodynamic or leave it the the sommelier if I know them and is really just matching the right amount of tannins (or lack thereof) that matches the dish I'm eating or making, and I saw the leap that you're describing in California happen in my lifetime.

Back then as a kid I saw wine as that horrible tasting stuff from a box we were forced to drink at church/school in the US, in direct contrast with my Summers in Southern Europe where I had small glass at dinner which was remarkably smoother but something I personally didn't enjoy at all and told it was because American/Californian junk was inherently inferior. Only to turn the tables around in about a decade or so and created World class products from Sonoma and Napa that commanded a premium in Europe.

Which was also a phenomenon with olive oil by the way.

Personal anecdote: I can enjoy a $35 bottle of wine from Rioja just as much as a $200 bottle from Bordeaux depending on what I'm eating and I think food plays the bigger role in if I enjoy a wine or not than the wine itself. Also my Ag focuses just as much of not more on soil microbiology than the type of cultivar that is grown with remarkably different results, so the same should apply to grapes.

[fennecfoxen]

Terrior is marketing gobbledygook on top of the genuine flavor differences which actually make the product taste like something interesting and worth drinking. (Even outside of wine — my New Zealand oolong tea was grown somewhere rocky, and tastes nothing like what's grown in Taiwan.) I'm sure in principle you can find some way to wedge that flavor in artificially, but it's a massive hurdle to add on the path to a respectable product.

[vitus]

I would be fascinated to see a scientific approach to mimicking the effects of terroir. I don't believe for one minute that it's magic, but I also don't think it's fully understood.

Some aspects are explainable, e.g. limestone-rich soil increases the acidity of grapes, which can impart notes of citrus on the wine. But what about notes of chocolate, or berries, or stone fruit? In some cases, this is totally because the winemaker actually conditions with those things, but in plenty of cases, this is actually imparted by the growing conditions.

For what it's worth, the impression I get is that Americans place a lot of stock in the varietal of grape, e.g. Pinot noir or Chardonnay, whereas the French place a lot more emphasis in the region, e.g. Bordeaux or Burgundy. Both impart different qualities (e.g. it's going to be a lot easier to find notes of pepper in a Tempranillo than in a Chardonnay).

[veggieburglar]

You are correct that American wines are much more likely to be labeled with their varietal, and European wines with their place of origin. However, those places of origin are so closely tied to specific wine styles that it’s really one and the same. Red Burgundy is always going to be Pinot Noir- unless it’s labeled Beaujolais, which is always Gamay. Sure, there are some outliers (white Burgundy is almost always Chardonnay, but there are some bottling a of Aligote and Pinot Blanc) but generally you know what grape/blend you’re going to get from each of these places. New Word winemakers aren’t as tied to tradition (and hundreds of years of trial and error) in what they plant, so you’re more likely to see unusual choices.

Not going to get into terroir other than to say that to reduce it solely to the soil type is the wrong way to look at it. It’s more of a holistic view of the entire growing microclimate, including soil, topography, water table, general climate conditions, etc.

I’m a sommelier and own a wine shop, for what it’s worth.

[vitus]

> Not going to get into terroir other than to say that to reduce it solely to the soil type is the wrong way to look at it.

We're agreed on that front. My comment about limestone was to present one scientific aspect of terroir as _I_ understand it (which is to say, as a casual wine drinker recalling something I'd heard from a winemaker some years back).

That's a fair point about a lot of varietals being very heavily coupled to places of origin, and that's especially true for the big names that we've been discussing. But a white wine from the Alsace region (for instance!) could be a Gewurztraminer, or a Riesling, or something else entirely. (That said, I wouldn't expect an Alsatian white to be an Italian varietal...)

(https://winefolly.com/deep-dive/alsace-wine-region/ suggests a pretty even split between 4 different main varietals, with a tail.)

[veggieburglar]

Alsatian wines would typically be labeled with the varietal on the bottle, for just that reason- Alsace is known for a variety of world class white wines.

[Melting_Harps]

> Not going to get into terroir other than to say that to reduce it solely to the soil type is the wrong way to look at it. It’s more of a holistic view of the entire growing microclimate, including soil, topography, water table, general climate conditions, etc.

Well said.

[yencabulator]

All of these things sound like something a tightly controlled vertical farm could reproduce at will, once they figure out the mechanics. They could even come up with new, even more preferred, "terroirs", by adjusting settings.

[veggieburglar]

No doubt that they would come up with “new” terroir- every spot has its own “terroir.” My point was that it’s not something that can be quantified, so there’s no point trying to game it.

[selimthegrim]

Where the hell are they growing tea in NZ?

[fennecfoxen]

495 Gordonton Road, Gordonton, Hamilton 3281