[the__alchemist]

At first glance. I challenge you to find a technique (Being executed commercially, demonstrated in a paper, or clearly described) where high-calorie foods are grown indoors.

I'm not trying to be snarky; I'd love to see something like this, but the comment you reply to is my conclusion as well. I used to be very excited about this stuff, but the only viable crops are leafy greens sold at a high price.

I own a business selling sensors for use in hydroponics. I started because I wanted to make an impact in food availability. I've abandoned that, and continue because hobbyists, and companies like this have a use.

[pc86]

> I challenge you to find a technique...where high-calorie foods are grown indoors.

The GP isn't saying this is happening, though. They're saying that selling rich people overpriced kale and strawberries can fund further research and innovation. Maybe the next step is corn. Maybe it's bankruptcy. But it has cash flow to invest in the research to see which one it is, in part from growing and selling the less impactful stuff now.

[ardy42]

> The GP isn't saying this is happening, though. They're saying that selling rich people overpriced kale and strawberries can fund further research and innovation. Maybe the next step is corn. Maybe it's bankruptcy. But it has cash flow to invest in the research to see which one it is, in part from growing and selling the less impactful stuff now.

Something about vertical farms for staple foods just doesn't pass the smell test. One big aspect of farming is the conversion of solar energy to edible chemical energy. Assuming natural plants and some efficient way of using natural light, stacking farmland vertically just means less energy per acre. And barring some new kind of clean energy like fusion, using artificial light will just introduce conversion inefficiencies and expense, at best.

[bertil]

> Assuming natural plants and some efficient way of using natural light

That’s the surprising result of "closed" greenhouses: standard solar panels convert to electricity that convert to LEDs at the right frequency that offer more yield. Plants only absorb very narrow bands of light. Then you have more gains because the plants don’t have to maintain temperature, fight pests, dig deep roots for water; day/night cycle can be optimised. It is leafy greens for now, but there’s no strong reason that other high-energy crops (like sugar cane, carrots, beetroot) wouldn’t work.

Source: Friends working at the Umeå university grow house.

[quantified]

Right. Would it go too far to say that the conversion of solar to chemical energy is the biggest aspect of farming?

I’d like to see the accounting for how much of the “100% renewable” energy is actual production and how much is an accounting practice that involves offsets somewhere. Maybe it is, plants don’t need lighting at night so you could use solar. But the efficiency of sun -> cell -> transmission -> LED -> plant is much less than sun -> plant, it’s not a winner there. Are they attached to the grid and push more electricity to it than they draw?

Balancing production costs vs the carbon chain of transport is good to look at. Our springtime apples come from Chile, New Zealand, and other far-flung places. How many joules of energy went into getting that kale to your Boston store from California vs from Worcester in January? If the energy to grow to harvest is less than the energy to transport, and people really really need that fresh-picked kale in January, it’s a niche win. I’m doubtful you can make much of a dent in New England’s produce needs using New England’s available renewable energy during wintertime. But gathering evidence is better than listening to my doubt.

Vertical orchards- I don’t see that happening. So my apples will still be imported from across the globe.

[fudged71]

How about cricket farming for use in livestock feed? It's a high protein source that uses fewer resources than traditional feedstock.

Sure, it's a secondary product, but could have large impacts.

[chrisco255]

From what I understand about chicken and pig feed, soy meal is typically used, and it's from the part of the bean that humans don't use, since the oil is the key ingredient in so many foods consumed by people. Is cricket farming more efficient than soy farming? Seems like the economies of scale for soy are so much greater.

[stjohnswarts]

I think we're talking about veggies here, no? I think at some point we'll have to turn to insects for our protein needs though.

[ada1981]

Mushrooms are a protein dense food that can be grown indoors with little energy needs.

[kaba0]

Though mushrooms contain large amounts of chitin which we can’t really digest, so I’m not sure they would be a good fit as base food.

[yreg]

We can get all the protein we need from plants if we want to.

[cageface]

Plant protein is easier to grow and perfectly adequate for human nutrition. This obsession with animal protein is unscientific.

[rewq4321]

Yeah, the cricket protein thing is a fad. Anything that can be produced by an animal, can be produced by a (potentially genetically-modified) plant or yeast more efficiently. Animals are above plants trophic-level-wise, and their feed conversion efficiency can't be more than 100%.

That said, insects are way more efficient than mammals at converting plants into human-edible calories thanks in part to their lack of internal temperature control and growth rate.[0] If you had to choose an animal to use as a protein-constructor, crickets would be a great choice.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_conversion_ratio#Insects

[cubano]

So your saying that I have to decide that all of a sudden I can't wait to eat crickets because they are more efficient?

That just seems to me like a choice that very few humans are actually going to make.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> So your saying that I have to decide that all of a sudden I can't wait to eat crickets because they are more efficient?

No no, not you. All the poor people. They're the ones who will be fed "efficiently". You and I and most people on HN will retain our privilege to eat what we want.

[cubano]

If your idea of "privilege" is fighting heroin addiction [and currently very much winning that battle, thankfully] and living on the streets of West Palm Beach because due to felony drug possession charges over 15 years ago I can't get hired anywhere, than yes, "you and I" are most definitely that.

[bertil]

Roasted crickets are actually very tasty. I’d compare them to Cheetos. To each their own, sure, and I won’t tease you for refusing, but I can completely see then as something you wouldn’t be surprised to find in a corner deli, as complementary snacks in a bar, or while gaming at a friend’s. I prefer peanuts but many people are allergic. You want alternatives.

[cageface]

They're everywhere here in Thailand. You can buy a bag from a street vendor or find them in many supermarkets along with worms and other things we wouldn't consider eating in the West.

I haven't had the courage to try them myself yet.

[ardy42]

> That just seems to me like a choice that very few humans are actually going to make.

It seems very HN to take the perspective of an aloof farmer-of-humans rather than that of an actual human.

[cageface]

I think you're going to have a lot easier time getting people to eat lentils than crickets, but sure, if it has to be cows or crickets then go for the crickets.

[Lio]

I think if you’d eat shrimp or prawns you’d give crickets ago. I’ve had them before as a novelty and they were fine.

I say novelty as they’re not generally available as food where I live.

[cageface]

I live in Thailand and they're everywhere here. So far I haven't been brave enough to try them.

[Dirlewanger]

It may be easier to grow and great for humans, but reducing it to just that is like the people who want to subsist only on Soylent; it's missing the bigger picture about food.

Some people like eating things beyond just basic nutritional subsistence. It's why meat is so popular. We've also been eating it since time immemorial. The demand for meat isn't going away no matter how many cricket/insect ads you shove in people's faces. If anything, it just breeds resentment for sustainable food practices, because the rich and powerful will always still have access to meat products.

Making meat into a luxury product like the days of yore will not work. The monkey's out of the bottle on that one. We need to work with this fact, not around it.

[cageface]

Climate change is going to necessitate a lot of uncomfortable changes, including not eating whatever you want whenever you want. Selfishness at that level doesn't work with 8 billion people.

That said I think lab grown meats look pretty promising.

[Retric]

It’s common for chickens and other poultry or even cows to be grown indoors. Animals don’t need direct sunlight, but they still need food grown somewhere.

[mschuster91]

> Animals don’t need direct sunlight

They do, at least per animal welfare standards.

[fouric]

That's not the definition of "need" that GP was using...

[tsdlts]

I find this comment utterly harrowing.

[thisisnico]

Idk, where I live there are massive greenhouse operations that produce insane amounts of high quality food.

[sonotmyname]

Yes - likely growing lettuce, cabbage, tomatoes, cucumbers, maybe some simple berries... That’s the same stuff that’s been growing in hothouses for over a century.

I think GPs point is that those aren’t the high-calorie, high value crops needed to make this a real revolution in food production.

Show me vertical vineyards, maize, grains, stone fruits, apples etc.

[taneq]

It seems to me that vineyards should be the easiest thing to 'verticalize' since you're growing vines anyway. You should be able to cover the entire sunward side of a skyscraper with vines and harvest the grapes using a robot hanging off a crane.

[Melting_Harps]

> It seems to me that vineyards should be the easiest thing to 'verticalize' since you're growing vines anyway. You should be able to cover the entire sunward side of a skyscraper with vines and harvest the grapes using a robot hanging off a crane.

Except when you realize that the most highly valued added product (wine) relies on soil/region specific soil (terroir). No one buying table grapes, even at Whole Foods, is going to spend the kind of money to make something like that at scale. I've worked in a vineyard for a Summer in Croatia, it's how I got run my own Kitchen in Italy soon after as it crated a good 'marketing hook' for a chef, and I can go into why that skyscraper idea is impractical for anything fruit bearing but suffice it to say: it won't work unless you want a small, low yield plaything that can be outperformed from anything in most common grape growing regions even if hyper-local expenses are removed. Hell, even using them as a cover crop/ornament on a trellis in a backyard garden may yield better results.

Cash crops, as specified, are based on economies of scale for a reason and are actually very efficient when properly done and have 10,000+ years of refinement behind them--crop rotation, efficient irrigation, cover crops in the off season, livestock grazing for fertility and micro-organism replenishment. With the advent of more automation, and no till methods we are seeing increases in yield, despite global climate change. Water scarcity, irrigation and water table replenishment and growing organically is something I wished we placed a greater focus on and would do more good for us and our Ecosystem as a whole than anything else hindering cash crop modality if I'm honest.

I sincerely wish people were forced to have to farm as part of their formal education, and continued gardening as their is so much deadly ignorance in regards to where our food comes from and the maladies it creates as a result of being so far from it: obesity and heart disease kills more in the West than anything else.

With that said, I see this as very good data for Mars colonization and food production; but for terrestrial purposes its absurd for anything but Hype/Marketing an expensive and impractical bridge with fanciful ideas of 'closing the gap between food deserts' when urban farming is the real answer in the US (see: Detroit). This model only semi-worked when they were aligned to expensive fine dining restaurants, now that those have been systemically destroyed and may never come back, I don't see it having much if any potential as I've eaten greenhouse stuff that aren't herbs or salad from Holland and its awful!

We could honestly make more headway in solving hunger, food scarcity if they just allotted community gardens in vacant land not in use and mandated fruit bearing trees be used instead of ornamental ones in urban landscaping and reinstated gleaning as a form Community Supported Agriculture.

[Kosirich]

I've worked in a vineyard for a Summer in Croatia Which region of Croatia if you don't mind me asking? My family has a vineyard (800 liters, for our personal consumption) so I know the hassle you are talking about. From what I can tell there has been some advancement regarding automation in the area of vine making over the past years with tractor attachments that allow automatic and precise spraying of fungicides as well as machines that automatically pick the grapes (shake,comb and vacuum). By that I mean, that it has become available even to smaller-medium producers as I see people using it. As you probably know, a lot of what a winemaker does is adaption of the vineyard to seasonal conditions by adjusting variety and quantity of spraying with (usually) fungicides, reducing the leaves and reducing the grapes (in order to increase overall sugar and quality). This variation would be something that would be reduced using greenhouse/indoor growing.

[Melting_Harps]

> a Which region of Croatia if you don't mind me asking?

Bok, dobro dan:

Umag professionally, and then the countryside in Zagreb to help a friend and her village harvest later that year and begin the wine and olive oil pressing.

It took a whole village of maybe 25 rotating of various ages people to do both orchards and it was rather small, maybe 2 heactres each? But we were casual and stopped to eat and dink, chat and nap.

Whereas the one in Umag was back breaking slave labour as it was way larger ~20 hectares broken up into various fields depending on cultivar, as they mainly focused on white wine based grapes we sold by the bottle at the nearby campsite and at bio markets/stores, they had some other fruit for rakija. But it was me and an another guy who were the only apprentices in a staff of 4 plus the 3 owners who mainly focused on sales and very light field work in the mornings so me and the other guy each worked 13-16 hour days back then 6 days a week and a lot of that was just pruning leaves and unripened grapes and adjusting the vineyards to the trellis which is what made that farm most of its money. I'm glad I made the pivot to Italy when I did as I preferred to work in gardens and develop a menu and then run the kitchen for an Agrotourism in Maranello! Those 16-18 hour days were much more better spent in my opinion.

One day in Croatia the other guy in Umag was out taking care of the tomato fields and I was actually spraying the copper and Organic/Bio fungicide mixture with the blower machine in the red field and making my way to the white when I saw the plume of a bomb go off that contained sulfide in a neighbors much larger field nearby, which typically was used for low-end wines that give you headaches or were used for gemišt, and I had to run like hell to avoid getting sprayed on as that stuff hurts when you inhale it. I actually left the blower behind until the sky air cleared.

> As you probably know, a lot of what a winemaker does is adaption of the vineyard to seasonal conditions by adjusting variety and quantity of spraying with (usually) fungicides, reducing the leaves and reducing the grapes (in order to increase overall sugar and quality).

I know the farm-hands (like me back then) do that, the winemaker is usually the owner who seldom does much of the labour in my experience besides occasionally walk the fields and prepare the barrels and bottles in my experience during harvest. And he usually has an apprentice(s) do much of that as they're usually much older.

> This variation would be something that would be reduced using greenhouse/indoor growing.

How so? The vines are permanent once planted and are dormant in the Fall-late Spring in most wine making regions, so that is money you're losing because you cannot grow other crops, moreover from my limited experience on those farms the roots underneath need to have be really established before you're able to get any reasonable yield as the first years/decade is always going to be so-so vintages as the soil and microbiology underneath creates the taste you're looking for and is altered with time--different types of compost, more sand-soil ratios etc... These are all losses if greenhouse spaces is built for that end alone instead of fast-growing, low input things like salads and herbs in the winter and early planted nightshades in the early Spring to capture the higher premium on being first to Market.

Again, I don't know how the lack of restaurants is going to alter all of this, to be honest.

[marcus_holmes]

> we are seeing increases in yield, despite global climate change

I'm ignorant about this. I want to learn more.

I've read that increasing CO2 %, increasing temperature, and increasing water availability will improve plant yields. Is this true?

I also understood that one of the positive feedbacks for the climate response is the increased amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, water vapour being a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. I'm confused about how we can have more water vapour in the atmosphere and yet less water availability, presumably because less rain - these things appear to be conflicting.

I understand that the change in climate will change the established weather patterns that we're used to now, and create drought in areas that are currently wet. I don't understand why we can't adapt to this and move our farms to where the water is.

In short: I keep hearing this, that global climate change will reduce our ability to grow plants, and I don't understand why this is true or how the science for it works. Can anyone shed some light on it, please?

[Melting_Harps]

> I've read that increasing CO2 %, increasing temperature, and increasing water availability will improve plant yields. Is this true?

Depends on the crop/cultivar and where and when it is being grown, but I distinctly recall 2019's Peach bumper crop in Colorado as I made a peach salad on my station that sold like crazy which was used as a sauteed fruit with our pork chop entree!, too and we still had more come in than we could use And this was sold alongside a melon and heirloom tomato salad that also sold well, but was always constantly running out sooner into service because of the immense surplus of peaches we had that year [0]. Looking deeper into that later in the Fall after we looked over the (record breaking) numbers I looked back at the reasons why which included the weather in the Western Slope: no snap frosts, very little hail and warmer/balmier albeit wetter weather in the Summer in Colorado.

This was true for almost all stone-fruit that year, too. Whereas the heirloom tomatoes were limited in the early Summer hit a snag because they kept bursting due to the extra rain or had to be grown in lower elevation counties in Boulder, Weld, Ft Collins and in the Southern Counties. This would get better, as one who has farmed/gardened would predict, in the later Summer to Fall despite the rain as more plants were planted and were maturing to uptake the water.

> I understand that the change in climate will change the established weather patterns that we're used to now, and create drought in areas that are currently wet. I don't understand why we can't adapt to this and move our farms to where the water is.

This is my biggest concern (one that I understand well) as our prediction models and the Ag supply chains and distribution models we've created and been reliant on and how fragile they are under simple variable changes as proven by COVID this year. We could, should and WILL HAVE TO adapt but the issue is that we have such a centralized food system that its so monolithic with massive labour shortages and is hard to correct that without a local system to meet the demand (which is the case for most city dwellers) is exactly how Society breaks down.

> I keep hearing this, that global climate change will reduce our ability to grow plants, and I don't understand why this is true or how the science for it works. Can anyone shed some light on it, please?

Its way more complex than that, and is really impossible to give a complete answer as countless books are written on specific topics that range from: water depletion due to lack of rain and drought, soil erosion, bee/pollinator collapse etc... I can help if you narrow down what specific aspect you're asking, but essentially what you're describing is the fear of ecological collapse as much of Man's intervention and actions have led to immense consequences we never took into account.

I also think that the Sun's activity is playing a bigger part in weather, specifically the role cloud formation has on rising temperature as a result of cosmic ray ejection, that we do not speak about enough.

https://coloradosun.com/2019/05/29/western-slope-peaches-bum...

[specialist]

> farm as part of their formal education, and continued gardening

Enthusiastic agreement.

Maybe even get credits (and maybe even some cash) working in the school cafeteria.

My father had a veggie garden. Including heirloom seeds from the family's farming past. My siblings and I had a completely different relationship to food, compared to my school mates.

[Melting_Harps]

> Enthusiastic agreement.

I'm glad you do, given your background, because while I'm a massive proponent of UBI it still doesn't solve a critical issue in the Human Condition: Purpose and the lack thereof.

I learned so much during my apprenticeship and I was honored to be taken in by some the most renown artisans in their fields that spanned: pecorino cheese makers, aceto and lambrusco brewers in Italy to a multi-genrational legacy Emnentaler cheese maker that allowed me apprentice for a day and even let me use the stick his great grandfather used in the Bernese Alps 100s of years ago to make a very rural and basic cheese.

This helped me not only further appreciate their artisan craftmanship, but it also gave greater insight that I would use in my career(s) later on in 3 separate Industries and allowed me to get opportunities to work under Michelin star chefs and get offers to work in Jame Beard award restaurants as a cook that simply cannot be gained in culinary school, which I completely bypassed to my complete benefit.

I think having community based works program alongside UBI would help solve local food insecurity and could be a critical part in solving so many more ecological issues, especially for disenfranchised and disillusioned younger millennials and Gen Z kids who we have to admit have really limited options in the traditional labour market with ever diminishing returns to be had rom their mandated 'formal education.' At least a program like that could pay for itself in the long with the work experience they gain as it could give them insight to prepare them to take on massive issues like carbon sequestration, soil erroison and water reclamation and basic survival skills for Mars colonization that will be CRITICAL in their lifetime and those to come and may be give them motivation to take their UBI with their neighbors/family and create a seed-round for a startup like Boyan Slat did to pull the plastic out of the Pacific Ocean.

I know that would help a lot of the kids who follow and are motivated by Greta Thunberg's activism and help give the younger crowds from Extinction Rebellion (all amazing movements) a productive outlet to let them utilize their anxiety to desirable ends. Because I know I felt that anxiety about our Environment since the 2008 financial crisis but didn't have any options due to student debt until I could afford to quit my Industry altogether and undertook a series of massive risks to pay it back that propelled me to flee to the other side of the World and put all of my skill-set to the test.

I now know in hindsight that I couldn't have done even a fraction of the amazing things I've done in Life if it weren't for those years of apprenticeship and how lucky I was that it even worked at all. My only wish is that the youth have a more structured path to that end as they will need it.

And to be honest after accumulating these skills I'd really like to be able pass this knowledge on to help instruct these kids to help them solve these very dire Environmental situations and if I can give them a craft in the process as I can no longer do it myself anymore I'd be glad to do so at no cost--but I wouldn't say no to reducing my tax liability.

One of the most rewarding things about going from an ignorant apprentice making a ton of mistakes along the way and learning a skill or craft well enough to then have apprentices of your own is this sort of legacy transfer of knowledge that I think is what parenthood must feel like when you see your child be able to undertake a project or task by themselves for the first time.

I've only had 3 but it was pretty cool experience that I think could scale with limited resources if the right incentives allowed to tap into the collective will and desire of the youth as I think it's Human Capital issue more than it is a lack of resources.

That was long, but I'm sure you're one of the few that would probably fully appreciate that sentiment and need given what you've written about your past.

[spoonjim]

“Terroir” is just marketing gobbledygook, just like they once said that California wines would never compete with French wines. Get a plant the right climate and nutrients and the fruit will produce well. No mysticism to it.

[Melting_Harps]

> “Terroir” is just marketing gobbledygook

A lot of it is definitely blatant Marketing, but having been in the culinary Industry and tasted countless wines from various regions their is definitely a reason why that phrase to describe a certain experience has persisted. Certain Pinot Noirs from various regions taste, smell and feel unique in your mouth and accentuate a dish differently than others.

And I'm not a wine snob by any means; I usually just drink whatever is Organic or preferably Biodynamic or leave it the the sommelier if I know them and is really just matching the right amount of tannins (or lack thereof) that matches the dish I'm eating or making, and I saw the leap that you're describing in California happen in my lifetime.

Back then as a kid I saw wine as that horrible tasting stuff from a box we were forced to drink at church/school in the US, in direct contrast with my Summers in Southern Europe where I had small glass at dinner which was remarkably smoother but something I personally didn't enjoy at all and told it was because American/Californian junk was inherently inferior. Only to turn the tables around in about a decade or so and created World class products from Sonoma and Napa that commanded a premium in Europe.

Which was also a phenomenon with olive oil by the way.

Personal anecdote: I can enjoy a $35 bottle of wine from Rioja just as much as a $200 bottle from Bordeaux depending on what I'm eating and I think food plays the bigger role in if I enjoy a wine or not than the wine itself. Also my Ag focuses just as much of not more on soil microbiology than the type of cultivar that is grown with remarkably different results, so the same should apply to grapes.

[fennecfoxen]

Terrior is marketing gobbledygook on top of the genuine flavor differences which actually make the product taste like something interesting and worth drinking. (Even outside of wine — my New Zealand oolong tea was grown somewhere rocky, and tastes nothing like what's grown in Taiwan.) I'm sure in principle you can find some way to wedge that flavor in artificially, but it's a massive hurdle to add on the path to a respectable product.

[fogihujy]

The big one would be soy beans or potatoes in vertical farms. I've seen some buzz about startups attempting it, but I am unable to find anyone who actually succeeded.

But on the other hand, vertical farming could possibly increase yields for traditional greenhouse owners, and cheap lettuce and tomatoes are definitely not a bad thing.

[stjohnswarts]

potatoes?

[samvher]

Same here (Netherlands) but it’s important to realize that greenhouses make a lot of use of natural light and soil and are therefore not entirely the same as indoor/vertical farming.

[hef19898]

Nothin wrong with greenhouses at that scale, for obvious reasons more often than not these vegetables are what I eat. You can taste the difference so between greenhouse stuff that never saw true dirt to grow in and things from your own garden or that grew in actual soil I was quite amused when i saw tomatoes and so on grow in soil and small plantations in fron tof a farm house in the Netherlands surrounded by greenhouses.

And still, this industrial style of grwing food is what enables our high living standard. if we now could just figure out how not have too much food in Europe and not enough in other places...

[nandhinianand]

The question is "Is the (total) cost of those high quality food from greenhouse ops cheaper than same quality food from traditional land agriculture?"

[arcticbull]

Certainly in any remote or isolated community. Definitely in Hawaii - and in Northern Canada (where fresh produce is flown in by air every day, and a head of lettuce goes for over $7 and a thing of orange juice for $26 [1]).

[1] https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/margaret-whitley/food-prices-c...

[thisisnico]

I think a lot of it is based on locale. Many of the foods may not be easy or possible to grow local, imports are expensive, food grows faster in greenhouses, additionally you can have many grow cycles over the entire year including winter, where that may not be possible with just typical land. They are growing greenhouse operations exponentially, it is a multi-billion dollar business in our locale.

[the__alchemist]

I should have clarified re indoors: My comment was about setups like in the article, which are reliant on electric lights. One of the biggest limitations they have is electricity cost.

[gonzo]

If you’re pumping water at any volume you’re using electricity (or fossil fuels).

You can build head with a windmill, but moving water (gpm) requires horsepower.

Also: LEDs are very efficient vs other types of lighting.

[lmm]

> If you’re pumping water at any volume you’re using electricity (or fossil fuels).

Sure, but how much energy compared to also running grow lights?

[Daho0n]

Does LEDs work for growing food?

[jhickok]

Yes, vertical farms will typically use LED lights.

[m463]

I think a comparison to tesla is a red herring, the analogy doesn't hold up to food.

Where I suspect this kind of growing technique would work is probably the spices aisle of the grocery store, and they have always been pretty high margin.

[spacecity1971]

Cultured/printed meat.