[usiegj00]

Hi guys--Jonathan here at Bare. I've forced everyone's hand on this because... whelp... we've recently acquired the business and we ended up finding that we can be critical to Stripe Webhooks processing for folks on the older Stripe API. We literally will take down your invoicing on Stripe when a customer cancels. Then we have the unsavory task of working with customers that have canceled, did not complete their deprovisioning and then flame us for causing them outages. I love a lively debate but if you're a customer and love us, reach out to me NOW and I'll hear your feedback. If you're not a customer, then please, please if you never want to talk to your vendor, please go to ProfitWell or ChartMogul. Patrick and Nick are great guys and are crushing it and will gladly take your business. We are getting eaten from the bottom by platforms AHEM Stripe that are inspired by us, folks that clone us and you can see from our revenue transparency that we're the last in line for making money. That is going to change--by helping customers that really want to make more... make more. If you'd like to give me direct feedback, give me a ring at 855 252 6050. (I'm also a CISSP™, CREST CRT™ and Brown Cybersecurity dude--so if you've any legislation that speaks to this, let me know--for you folks quoting CA--we have business customers and they are over 13.)

[teraflop]

In addition to the California law that has already been mentioned, would you care to comment on the Visa Product and Service Rules (which Stripe's TOS incorporates by reference) which state that if you process recurring payments, you must:

> Provide a simple cancellation procedure, and, if the Cardholder’s order was initially accepted online, at least an online cancellation procedure.

https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/about-visa/visa-rules...

[colechristensen]

In California it is illegal to not allow online cancellation for services signed up for online. No exceptions, it has nothing to do with children.

If I were your customer I would make a point of taking every legal avenue to punish you for this behavior, and the reasoning here guarantees I wouldn’t think of touching your product.

[tgtweak]

If I can delete my entire GitHub account and screw everything and everyone connected to it with a single red warning prompt you can bet your ass it's possible to online cancel a service that may in some edge cases affect a customer.

[cesher]

If you automated the on-boarding process to Baremetrics, you sure as hell can automate the un-boarding process.

Regardless, I don’t get why anyone uses Baremetrics, your dashboard is slow as shit and looks like your customer service is equally shit.

[rahimiali]

People are complaining that they don’t want to call you. And here you are asking people to call you.

[usiegj00]

Hiya--we're not a consumer service, so yeah, I'm asking people to call me. I'll respond a bit to this thread because HN is read by lots of folks, but it's also filled with trolls. Businesses talk to businesses. Especially when we're going to screw something up with low bandwidth communication. I'm a real dude and happy to chat to real folks running real businesses. Consumers should not be using our platform.

[austhrow743]

>Hiya--we're not a consumer service, so yeah, I'm asking people to call me.

Hey man, just wanted to let you know that you've accidentally placed free trial and mailing list buttons on your home page. Seeing as you're not a consumer service and all you probably want to take those down.

You've also accidentally integrated with the consumer service known as Stripe, who have the horribly consumerish feature of closing your account right in account settings. Might want to get on that before the Coalition of Serious Business finds out.

[rahimiali]

I’m not hung up on consumer vs business or legality. I’m trying to point out that you sticking to your guns in this situation sends the message that you don’t care about inconveniencing the people you’re doing business with. I understand these are soon-to-be-ex-customers who are about to have no value to you. But you have a chance here to leave them on good terms so they can recommend you to their friends. You are instead leaving a bad taste in their mouths.

[jevgeni]

Since you are targeting global customers, just FYI in a lot of European jurisdictions a written “expression of will” is enough. So nobody is buying this obligation to call ruse.

[noncoml]

> HN is read by lots of folks, but it's also filled with trolls

Just wow..

[ZephyrBlu]

Pretty funny that he says that about one of the most mature and well-behaved communities on the internet.

I guess everyone who disagrees with him is a troll.

[GoblinSlayer]

Uh, no, sending meat sounds over air is the worst form of communication ever, packed with ambient noise, other noise, aggressive compression, low volume, intermittent radio signal and heuristic commutation that works only every other time.

[AntiImperialis2]

So, you're discriminating against deaf people? Boy, you're going down big. You have no idea.

[chris_wot]

I may have had my differences with the HN mods, but this place is NOT filled with trolls. If anything, it is quite troll free.

[lodovic]

I think Brian will be burned out in a week once unhappy customers start to call him

[sergiomattei]

This just smells of completely misunderstanding who you're targeting.

Good luck, you're going to need it.

[that_guy_iain]

I'm just going to put this out there, maybe he knows who he is targetting and it's not us.

[papandada]

I've never seen a business talk to a business, actually.

[rchaud]

Lawyers talk to each other so businesses don't have to. Which is where this might end up if Baremetrics has customers in California.

[that_guy_iain]

Only a fool would go get a lawyer instead of making a phone call. Especially, if you have employees who you can tell to make the phone call too. I suspect if you did get a lawyer the first thing they'll suggest is they call the number to get it cancelled and will ask if you called the number.

[rchaud]

I'm not talking about a customer getting a lawyer involved. I'm talking about a DA looking into whether Baremetrics is violating CA law by not having an online-only cancellation option to corresponding with its online-only registration system.

[icelancer]

Can only imagine how angry the original Baremetrics founder is watching you ruin his business' reputation in mere weeks.

[tgtweak]

> days

[jakelazaroff]

> we ended up finding that we can be critical to Stripe Webhooks processing for folks on the older Stripe API. We literally will take down your invoicing on Stripe when a customer cancels.

What does this even mean? Are you saying that if you remove a customer’s Stripe integration, it prevents them from being paid by their own customers?

[khalilovcmd]

I think he means if we are using their "Recover" product which I explained in my email that we absolutely don't use it.

https://baremetrics.com/features/recover

[DCoder]

I think what they mean is this: if you're dissatisfied with invoice PDFs generated and sent by Stripe, it's fairly common to disable the sending and use an integration [0] to generate/send them out instead. And then if you cancel that integration, oops, your customers no longer get their invoices.

[0]: https://stripe.com/partners/apps-and-extensions/invoicing

[khalilovcmd]

Hmm, interesting. They must know that I (we) are not using this, because I didn't even know this feature exists and our customers are happy getting sent Stripe invoices.

[supermatt]

For the sake of your business you need a buffer between you and the world.

> you can see from our revenue transparency that we're the last in line for making money

Maybe there are some social reasons for that. You've definitely lost face here.

[scoutt]

If you offer a very convenient frictionless entry, you have to offer a frictionless exit.

Otherwise it's way too difficult to interpret it as anything else but a cheap and very sad way to keep a customer. A really sad business practice.

[khalilovcmd]

100% in agreement, that's how I felt too.

[chris_wot]

Curious what you would do for someone who is mute. Would you make them call you?

[skellystudios]

Or far more common: someone who doesn't speak English

[justinclift]

... or any other medical condition which affects voice or hearing. Deafness, Laryngitis, etc.

[trungdq88]

Lol, I want this question answered.

[reaperducer]

Mutes already know how to use a TTY relay service.

[chris_wot]

Why force them to use it when email might be better?

[cannabis_sam]

Why are you guys obsessed with phonecalls?

[dave1999x]

No one believes you. Everyone sees this for what it is; a barrier to exit