[conception]

Just a point of clarification for those not familiar with the heist, the weapons used were -not- legal in CA or the US. It was also during the time of the Federal Assault Weapons ban. They were not owned nor able to be owned legally during that time.

It was also the inspiration for Heat’s shootout!

[DennisP]

So to clarify that...the federal Assault Weapons Ban applied to semi-auto rifles with certain ergonomic features, including pistol grips, flash hiders, and folding stocks. (Semi-auto is one bullet per trigger pull, full-auto means you can hold the trigger down and spray bullets.)

The North Hollywood robbers had illegally modified their weapons to enable full-auto fire. Since well before 1997, modifying guns like this has been a federal felony that gets you a ten-year prison sentence. That's a prohibition that predates the Assault Weapon Ban, which had nothing to do with full-auto weapons.

The AWB has since expired, and doing your own full-auto conversion will still get you ten years in the slammer. You can buy a full-auto weapon, but only after an extensive background check and approval of your local sheriff, if your state allows it, and only if the weapon was manufactured before 1986.

The movie Heat, of course, also had its robbers using full-auto. Incidentally, the movie came out before the North Hollywood robbery; many people have actually blamed the movie for inspiring the real robbers, one of whom owned a copy of the movie!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_(1995_film)#Impact

[Daniel_sk]

From wikipedia: An inventory of the weapons used:[7]

    A Bushmaster XM-15 converted illegally to fire full auto with two 100-round Beta Magazines
    A Heckler & Koch HK-91 semi automatic rifle with several 30-round magazines[38]
    A Beretta 92FS Inox with several magazines
    Three different civilian-model AK-47 style rifles converted illegally to fire full auto with several 75- to 100-round drum magazines, as well as 30-round box magazines.

[beerandt]

>approval of your local sheriff

Unless MGs are treated differently than other NFA items in some way I'm unaware of, the new (2016) ATF rules no longer require CLEO (chief law enforcement officer) approval as part of the process, only notification.

Of course certain state laws still have a similar approval restriction in place to comply with state law, but local law enforcement can no longer hamstring the actual NFA process.

>The final rule affects the NFA regulations by:

>...

>...requiring that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm, and the specified form for responsible persons (5320.23), be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the applicant/transferee or responsible person resides; and

>eliminating the requirement for certification signed by the CLEO.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/final-rule-41f-bac...

[DennisP]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that.

[tomcam]

Where do you even buy those pre-86 full autos? Asking for a friend.

[manfredo]

Usually at auction. Even poor quality, worn out registered automatics will run in the high thousands, or low tens of thousands because of constrained supply. This creates interesting dynamics where people take cheap (relatively, still ~$5,000 on the low end) legal automatics like MAC-10s and converting them to 5.56x45mm while retaining the original lower receiver.

Example:

https://youtu.be/YjrnB2cXSqM

[EGreg]

Wait wat?

These are legal somehow in USA? Can you please trace how and prove it with links?

[manfredo]

Automatic guns became regulated in the 1930s, and you need approval by the ATF to own them and they need to be registered. They're in a similar category as bombs, rocket launchers, and whatnot. They are strictly regulated and the government basically knows where each one is at all times.

In 1986, they stopped accepting new registrations for automatic guns. So there's a fixed supply of legal automatic firearms that normal people can own.

Read more here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#:~:tex....

[stordoff]

> So there's a fixed supply of legal automatic firearms that normal people can own.

Why do people want them? Is it just a hobby, or is there some utility I'm unware of?

[joering2]

Just a nit pick: the government only knows where each item is so long as the owner has reported it moving around, as required per ATF laws. Wanted to mention this because someone may imagine there is a GPS attached to lower receiver of FA. If you travel with your fully automatic you need to report it to your local sheriff office (stating purpose as well); also when you move to a different city/county/state.

Another nit pick: the approval is not some sort of interview or questionnaire as of why you need it. There is so-called ATF stamp (i.e. $200 for silencer) than you need to submit altogether with FBI fingerprints. These days mojority of ATF applications is registered thru "trust", instead of an individual. This creates all sorts of issues for LE in case they want to run extra background on you etc. So 90-something % of people chose $50 ATF "trust" that Sheriff cannot technically decline over the other option which is petition as individual and getting close to 100% chance of denial. The biggest hurdle is not some LE not liking your tattoo, its that ATF has a year long backlog. So you pay for your FA $25,000 today but its only delivered to your local licensed gun store, and they won't let you pick it up until ATF sends them document with green light. That take sup to 1.5 year these days. You can come and touch it and take few photos but they will not allow you to load it of course, or to take it out (including shooting range).

Finally, as OT mentions fixed supply, a so-called lower receiver of a fully automatic gun, a piece of metal not much bigger than a door handle (which does not even have any fancy engineering) is literally the most expensive piece of metal that you can buy on American soil. Some examples in extremely good shape go for $35,000 these days (check gunbroker dot com)

[throwaway_dcnt]

Yes, I own a few in fact. Although I don't live in CA. It was quite an arduous journey too, the paperwork was lost twice, once by the local sheriff (who has to sign an affidavit saying he or she vouches for you) and subsequently by ATF who approve the paperwork and send you a tax stamp as proof of this approval. Interesting Americana for an immigrant like myself and I had to get these machine guns just because it is such an American thing to do.

[tomcam]

You are living the good life, my friend!

[dharmab]

It's simple.

~~The Assault Weapons Ban only applied to new guns.~~ ATF policy change, not AWB. Existing guns were grandfathered in.

Guns have many interchangeable parts. The part of the gun that the government considers to be the "legal definition" is a part called the lower receiver. You can change almost anything about a gun as long as you keep the lower receiver and comply with any other laws.

So if you buy an old MAC-10 lower receiver that was manufactured before the new ATF policy, and add an adapter [1] that allows it to be combined with the non-lower parts from an AR-15, you can create a completely legal Frankenrifle with mostly new parts!

This isn't even the craziest thing you can do with gun loopholes in the USA. "Pistol braces" [2], originally made for war veterans with amputations to shoot small rifles, have pretty much obsoleted restrictions on short-barreled rifles. "Ghost guns" [3], i.e. lower receivers that have no serial number and do not appear in any database, are easily made by anyone with access to CNC tools (including a few hours rental for a few hundred bucks). 3D printed pistols are becoming a thing [4], although they are not very durable.

1: https://aandsconversions.com/2018/11/25/the-next-big-thing-f...

2: https://www.sb-tactical.com/product-category/brace/

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_gun

4: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jzik44/magdump_monday...

[manfredo]

The automatic weapons ban (specifically the 1986 Machine Gun Act) is distinct from the Assault Weapons Ban. The Assault Weapons Ban was in the 1990s and banned the sale of semi-automatic guns with certain shapes of grip, bayonet lugs, and other features. It did not ban anything based on magazine capacity, as is often stated. It expired in the 2000s since it had a sunset provision that made it last 10 years if not renewed.

[spamizbad]

Restrictions on SBRs never made sense anyway: it was a hold-over from the NFA back when they wanted to include pistols as well, but ultimately ripped that out of the legislation.

[dfsegoat]

Impactguns.com is one well known dealer of ATF regulated machineguns and AOWs [0, 1]. Based in UT if memory serves. Be prepared to drop 10k USD+ And obviously the bg check / atf stamps etc. and any fees your local receiving federally licensed firearms dealer may add.

I have zero affiliation with this site, they just have a large, dynamic inventory so it makes for fun browsing for me.

0- https://www.impactguns.com/machine-guns/

1- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_w...

[stanford_labrat]

You won’t be able to acquire one if you live in CA, NFA items are de facto banned for ordinary citizens.

[captainredbeard]

Not true

[WillPostForFood]

Technically legal, but effectively impossible for an average person to get the permit approved from the state. You'd have to be the head of Apple security or something like that.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms...

"De facto banned" for an ordinary citizen is an accurate way to describe it.

[wl]

More likely scenarios for the issuance of a dangerous weapons permit.

* You're a Hollywood armorer

* You develop or manufacture automatic firearms for government agencies

* You're a security contractor who has been provided automatic firearms as part of a federal contract

* You're a major museum displaying militaria

[bluedino]

Gunbroker.com

Be warned that they cost as much as a car.

[maxlybbert]

My family moved to California in 1987. I remember a school shooting in 1989 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_sh... ) that led significant California state law restrictions regarding guns. Just like the later federal assault weapons ban, they didn’t do a great job of just targeting the scary-looking guns they wanted to target while leaving just-as-lethal hunting rifles alone.

[Melting_Harps]

> Just a point of clarification for those not familiar with the heist, the weapons used were -not- legal in CA or the US. It was also during the time of the Federal Assault Weapons ban. They were not owned nor able to be owned legally during that time.

Only semi-correct, they had full-auto AK47s and extended mags, all of which at the time could be purchased and legally owned with a special stamp by the ATF [0]. As a child a friend's father had one he would bring out on new years to only short lived amusement in the neighborhood as we all lived in a densely populated suburb near a major freeway.

But without them, yes, you couldn't just go to a store and buy one off the shelf.

0: https://legalbeagle.com/8731203-class-three-stamp-through-at...

[throwaway0a5e]

The weapons they used theoretically could have been legal had they had the provenance to make them legal.

Converting your own semi-auto to full auto is in now way legal then nor now.

Full auto guns are basically a rich man's toy and have been since well before new ones were outlawed in 1986. The practicality mostly isn't there for criminal use and they're real expensive to feed.

[EGreg]

What happened in 1986 and are you saying it’s legal to own an automatic weapon if it was manufactured that long ago? Do you have to register it? And people can modify them and upgrade them?

[azernik]

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25514950

tl;dr - you don't "have to register" them, because by definition the ones that are legal are already registered. In '86 they stopped allowing new registrations for automatic weapons, but existing registered weapons were grandfathered in. US gun law considers the lower receiver to bear the "identity" of the weapon, so some pretty extensive modification can occur while it technically stays "the same gun" in a Ship of Theseus fashion.

[Rebelgecko]

Pretty much all NFA items are banned in California, even with a tax stamp. I believe that was already true at the time

[bhickey]

> It was also the inspiration for Heat’s shootout!

The North Hollywood shootout was in 1997, Heat came out two years prior.

[electriclove]

No, Heat came out Before that heist.

[reshie]

thats right. what it did was giving the police more militarization and most police now carry an ar in their cruisers(used to be shotgun at best) and also lot more military surplus like nraps.