[wpietri]

I used to think the same way. But now that I see how pervasive a force racism has been in America's history, I have a different view. Now I think it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?

A couple of the books that turned me around here: Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", a history of racist ideas. And Loewen's "Sundown Towns", a look at the wave of ethnic cleansing during the Nadir that happened across America. I had known about the Tulsa Massacre, but what I didn't know was how common smaller-scale events were for decades.

[rayiner]

I’m really not sure there is a sound conclusion to be drawn from comparing the Tulsa Massacre to people being skeptical of food from a different culture. The former is something that’s a unique and very ugly aspect of American history. The latter is pretty much universal.[1] You can squint and lump both things under the umbrella of “racism” but they’re so different as to be two completely different kind of things. And I don’t think it’s particularly useful to analyze both through the same lens.

Note that when Kendi talks about “racism” he’s talking about anti-Black racism specifically. I think folks try to generalize his ideas in a way that goes beyond what he actually purports to address.

[1] My Bangladeshi mom had a tinge of skepticism upon first learning my girlfriend (now wife) was from Oregon, “because they eat snakes.”

[chanakya]

I'd go even further and say that just because America has a history of racism and racist ideas does not mean that racism continues to be a major factor today. I've read Kendi, and he offers scant evidence that it is.

[wpietri]

Why would you expect a scholarly 500-year history of racist ideas to offer evidence of racism's existence today?

[chanakya]

I didn't mean his books on history. In the last 15 months or so, he's also published 3(!) books on racism in contemporary society.

[wpietri]

Ok? None of them look like books whose goal is to prove that racism exists. With a book title like, "How to be an Antiracist", I would think anybody would understand that the target audience is people who are well past questioning whether racism is still a thing. It's like expecting a cookbook to open with studies on why meals are a good idea.

[chanakya]

ok. Perhaps that's what he's trying to do. If someone wants more evidence that current racism is a significant force in determining outcomes in society, where should they look for references? What convinced you to move past questioning?

[wpietri]

Good thing that's not what I said, then. I pointed you at an endemic, centuries-long pattern of widespread American racism. You reduced it to one landmark event and then dismissed it.

It is also true that people are skeptical of different foods period. But more than one thing can be be happening at once.

[rayiner]

You pointed to a book that focuses on racism arising out of the enslavement of Black people in America and subsequent events over 500 years, in an article addressing the MSG myth. My point is that whatever inferences you can draw from that aren't usefully generalized to Americans being skeptical of what Chinese restaurants put in their food.

Skepticism of foreigners and the food they eat is universal to human societies. Enslavement of a distinct minority group, amounting to 1/8 of the population, for hundreds of years, and the social and economic consequences that remain when slavery ends and the groups must subsequently live alongside each other, is sui generis. It's not analytically useful to look at both things through the same lens. The causes, consequences, dynamics, and solutions are more or less completely different.

Skepticism of Chinese food ingredients is much better understood through the lens of the experience of prior generations of immigrants: Germans, Irish, Italians, etc. Anti-German antagonism in World War II accelerated uptake of English in German-speaking communities in the midwest and caused people to change their names; JFK's candidacy was met with charges of Popery; and people were actually quite skeptical of Italian food and unfamiliar ingredients like garlic.

[wpietri]

I pointed to two books that helped me understand a pervasive phenomenon in America. I agree I can't generalize two books to all of everything. But then, I didn't do that. There's an ocean of scholarship on this.

That you keep building straw men out of what I say makes me think this is not a great use of my time.

[rayiner]

I'm not criticizing your generalization because you're basing it on two books. I'm criticizing your generalization from books that are mainly about one context (the legacy of the enslavement of Black people) to a different context (American skepticism of foreign food). I disagree with your basic premise that the two things arise from the same "phenomenon"--generalized "racism."

[wpietri]

Ok. I'll give it one more go, just in case you are sincere but struggling.

That is not in fact my basic premise.

My basic premise, is, as I said: "it's worth asking both questions: Is racism really at play? And given America's lasting, endemic racism, is there reason to think something makes it absent in a given case?"

If America's history of racism were somehow only limited to Black people, then perhaps we could dismiss out of hand the notion that said racism could have something to do with a fact-free hysteria about "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome". But that's demonstrably not true.

Note that I've never said the two things are necessarily linked. I'm just saying that we can't presume a priori that racism isn't involved. We shouldn't assume that it is, but we mustn't assume that it isn't.

[Frondo]

Before you edited your comment, you said something about Americans being very willing to embrace foods from cultures around the world. For some reason, that remark reminded me of one of the talking points of the 2016 election, the specter of "taco trucks on every corner," and how the Republican campaign that year suggested that that'd be a bad thing.

[rayiner]

Trump throws a lot of stuff at the wall to see what sticks. That one didn’t even register with his own base. I remember having lunch one day in central Illinois—a rural county that went for Trump by 20 points this year. The most popular restaurant in town was a Mexican place. Even Breitbart likes taco trucks: https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/09/17/video-daughter-h...

[strogonoff]

Perhaps it would help knowing that dislike for MSG flavor enhancer is also a thing in other countries besides the US, and can happen without any exposure to Chinese food whatsoever.

It is justified with following reasoning. If:

1. I trust that my body will enjoy the taste of well-prepared food from healthy fresh ingredients, and will inform me when I ate enough.

2. MSG makes anything taste better.

It follows that:

3. With MSG added, my body can be fooled into eating unhealthy food and it can be fooled into wanting more food than it needs.

4. All else equal, I will assume that a chef who does not use MSG is more skilful than a chef who does.

This logic may well be faulty, superstitious, misinformed, etc., but what it is not is racist.

(Addendum: “Chinese restaurant syndrome” is a different thing though, and unlike basic distaste for MSG it does give off an antagonistic vibe. It’s interesting that it happens in the US of all places—I bet many people around the world associate MSG first and foremost with snacks from American brands like Pringles.)

[BoiledCabbage]

I think you've hit on the true issue.

The majority of people have only leared on a superficial level of of the intertwined racism of America's past - often times mostly the light touches they learned in elementary school. And what's taught in elementary school is intentionally simplified to something deemed appropriate for children. Some summary of slavery is bad, MLK, Rosa Parks, sit-ins...

Most people don't actually learn anything about American's history and ties with racism at an adult level. So instead people think they know the history of it, and as a result think (based on what they've learned) it's overblown.

Anyone I know who has actually taken time as an adult to read about American history and its relationship with racism, comes away with a very different view point.

It's so intertwined it's incredible.

[wpietri]

That was certainly my experience. What I learned about racism up through high school was basically, "This stuff happened, but long ago and far away, unconnected to what's going on around you."

And it's no coincidence that I learned this in a suburban school with a student body that was 1% black. In a state that was 14% black. And that had a long history of racial exclusion and white flight.

I'm shocked now at how one-sided my initial education was on this. Shocked, but not surprised.