[PlugTunin]

Interesting read.

Minor point of clarification: It's noted that many autistic folks struggle with empathy. There are two dimensions to empathy, cognitive and affective. Cognitive is more about perspective taking, or reading the feelings / intentions of others, while affective is the ability to share/understand the emotions of others, and respond appropriately.

Putting aside that the two may overlap, it's often the cognitive aspect that challenges the autistic, leaving them susceptible to being tricked, or unable to pick up on, say, whether or not a person is interested in dating them.

I point this out b/c it's important that this deficiency isn't construed as simply a predisposition to acting like an unfeeling jerk. There are many layers to empathy, as well as the related concept of Theory of Mind.

[skissane]

> as well as the related concept of Theory of Mind.

On the topic of theory of mind and ASD, I think this is quite an interesting read: "Empirical Failures of the Claim That Autistic People Lack a Theory of Mind" – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/

"We conclude that the claim that autistic people lack a theory of mind is empirically questionable and societally harmful"

[hinkley]

Temple Grandin's inventions mostly revolved around applying a theory of mind to farm animals, did they not?

[solarmist]

If only I could up vote this 100 times.

[cirno]

> it's often the cognitive aspect that challenges the autistic

Yes, that perfectly matches my experiences.

I have far too much affective empathy, but struggle with cognitive empathy and often unintentionally make enemies because I am too clumsy with my words and social interactions, and can't properly gauge social roles (such as when a person looks up to me and would be hurt to hear any criticism from me.)

It stings me when people repeat that I have no empathy at all, and I wish this was better understood by others. Thank you for pointing it out so eloquently.

(Only speaking for myself here, not others! All of us are very different.)

[minhm]

Perhaps those who misunderstand you also lack the cognitive empathy towards you!?

(edit: removed the phrase "your unintentional enemies" from my sentence above)

[krageon]

If you are sufficiently hurt you can be angry about what someone says to you even if you nominally understand they didn't mean to.

[aussieguy1234]

I'm curious if the supposed Theory of Mind impairments only apply when Autistic people theorize about Neurotypical minds, which are different from their own.

My guess is that when theorizing about another Autistic person mind, which is similar to their own, they might actually do quite well because they have their own mind to use as a base to work from, just like Neurotypical people have their own mind to use as a base when theorizing about another Neurotypical persons mind.

Similarly, I'd say your average neurotypical person would have difficulties theorizing about whats going on inside an Autistic persons mind.

If I'm right, then the difference in Theory of Mind in my view would be more of a difference than an fundamental impairment.

[BurningFrog]

A lot of the programmers I think are "on the spectrum" seem to have a real blind spot for the possibility that other people lack the knowledge they have.

If they know something, they just assume I do too.

[vizzier]

I'm not sure that this is exclusive to those on the spectrum. It is common enough to have a name; The curse of knowledge [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

[Doxin]

I mean sure there's that, and then there's colleagues you have to ask for context every single time. A previous coworker I had would frequently start talking to you about some bug he's trying to fix without first telling what bug he's even on about.

I feel like the curse of knowledge mostly applies when experts talk to non-experts. Not including trivially required context when talking to co-experts seems like something else to me.

[sjg007]

Well this explains why 70million voted for the other guy!

[cirno]

I know when I started out what I struggled with and how difficult it was to learn things. But after having learned them, I have a lot of trouble explaining how I got there. I can't remember why it was hard anymore, as it just seems easy to me now. This is a large part of why I don't enjoy writing documentation or teaching others. Point being, I know about this problem in me, it's not a blind spot, there's just not a lot I can do about it.

[dusted]

Exactly, most things are easy when you understand them, so even if it took a long time to "get" them, once you do, you tend to forget with time, how difficult it is.

[seanhandley]

I really struggle with this.

I think it feeds strongly into imposter syndrome too. It's easy to devalue your own contributions when you suspect anyone else could make them.

[cbsmith]

In my experience, non-programmers struggle with this just as much. The main difference is that as a specialized discipline, it is more likely a lot of their knowledge is not shared with other people.

[PlugTunin]

The curse of knowledge (or expertise) is interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

Edit: Sorry for the dupe. Vizzier posted this a minute or three before I did.

[zepto]

This is called ‘the double empathy problem’.

There has been an increasing amount of study on it, and research supports your guesses.

[aussieguy1234]

Just googled it, looks like this article has a good overview: https://network.autism.org.uk/knowledge/insight-opinion/doub...

[epiphanitus]

Put more simply, there is a big difference between the capacity to care about other people's feelings, and the capacity to understand them.

Some understand but do not care, whereas some care but do not understand. It dovetails really well with creativity but it can introduce many challenges in life.

[zamalek]

> it's often the cognitive aspect that challenges the autistic

I strongly relate with this as a child. As I grew older my friends would often come to me for emotional advice, which I explain as having found an understanding of the patterns behind emotions. I still have no clue how my own emotions work, but I share that with everyone.

[petercooper]

Sympathy vs empathy also adds another layer. If a certain event would cause me pain and that event happens to you, I can feel for you because I sympathize with your pain. This can easily pass as empathy. But if that same event would not cause me pain but it causes you pain, this can be difficult to resolve as it involves theory of mind which is often weak or missing in those with ASD.

[cookiengineer]

I was reading this comment dozens of times while trying to understand its implications.

When reflecting on myself, I think I have problems with both cognitive and affective empathy. From my perspective it's hard to differ between those because I think a lot of what makes the "reactibility of a person" is intertwined and feels like a really complicated maze that needs exploration to find a potential solution.

The problem is though, that when you try to explore "this maze" in a situation; usually people get very upset for me behaving not in an appropriate manner. So I guess that it's very hard to figure out when these exploration parts are appropriate; and when they are not.

> leaving them susceptible to being tricked, or unable to pick up on, say, whether or not a person is interested in dating them.

A lot of times in life people tend to exploit your character; and even when you realize it's just friendship or a distanciated acquaintance relationship the hard part is still saying no when people ask for your help. Oh so often you help them; and when you need their help once for a little thing like helping you to move something around - years later - they're suddenly not your friends anymore.

I often think that what keeps my sanity intact is "keeping a score" subconsciously... how often I helped or made space for somebody; and how often they did. While this is the jerk part to other people; it's a necessity for me to not get exploited by others again.

[raducu]

This rings so close to home for me too. I'm 36, I extremely rarely feel any envy(and when I feel it is about someone not "deserving" something because of something in that person) and I am very loose with my money. Because of this I was manipulated a lot, because even though I could see the manipulative behavior I could not figure out the MOTIVE behind it and I always attributed it to some other reasons that I could understand. I still have to second guess it a lot "really, is this abiut money? It can't be, right?"

[steve_adams_86]

I’m very similar. I easily become a door mat because I tend to assume people are sincere. It makes me seem nice, but I’m not trying to be particularly nice at all, just decent I guess. I don’t realize when I’ve been taken advantage of until months or even years later. I’m quite bad at reading these things in other people.

[rimiform]

It's interesting that you point out that the cognitive aspect is the part autistics struggle with, because my experience with autistic people (myself included) is that they tend to be adept at receiving the signal, but are unable to respond appropriately. For example, I find it obvious when someone is interested in what I'm saying, but I'm not sure what to do with that information (e.g. do I just stop? Switch subjects, which might lead to the same problem? Etc.).

Where did you find this information? I might be self-analysing wrongly, so it'd be helpful to know how one might reach the opposite conclusion.

[k__]

I lack the affective ability, but I would say that it's not distinct from my cognitive ability.

I say to myself I can "understand it", but if I can't feel it, I didn't really understand anything.

[bitL]

"Empathy" in the business circles, the one we hear most about these days, means if a given person takes into account the (profit) goals of other people. It has nothing to do with emotions.

[yissp]

Would cognitive empathy not be prerequisite to affective empathy? How can you share in another person's emotions if you're not able to recognize them in the first place?

[DaiPlusPlus]

I guess evolved instinctive or subconscious behaviour - (INB4 someone says "mirror neurons" and then someone else replies "mirror neurons do not work that way!") but you know how watching youtube videos of people getting hurt in hilarious fashion causes us to wince? Like that.

[galoisgirl]

Communication. I don't have a good script, but basically, ask questions. "What upsets you about it the most?" - that expresses understanding, compassion and offers a metaphorical shoulder to cry on. People love attention and talking about themselves, so they'll tell you.

[hiena03]

As someone in the spectrum, how could I improve my empathy?

[Viliam1234]

The first step is to look for the most obvious signs. (Sounds trivial, but many people don't it, instead they create overcomplicated hypotheses.) If someone smiles, they are probably happy. If someone screams, they are probably angry. If someone cries, they are probably sad. This is not going to be 100% perfect, e.g. sometimes people smile when they feel embarassed. But it's a good starting point that you shouldn't skip.

(Many people already have a story about how the other person feels, and either ignore the signs or try to find an explanation within the story. For example, I assume that the person is angry... but the person smiles at me... what a hypocrite!! Instead of considering that maybe I was wrong about the person being angry.)

For someone on the spectrum, probably the most difficult part is to stop doing what you are doing now, and observe the other person curiously. And make the habit to do this as often as possible. Because this is often more important than finishing the sentence (paragraphs, the entire speech) that you already started. This will be really difficult -- but the encouraging thing is that when you master this skill, you can become better at it than many neurotypicals. Because they are doing it in an instinctive half-assed way, but when you learn to focus, you will focus intensely. (Of course, a neurotypical could learn the same thing, the same way, they just have less motivation to do so, because they assume they are already perfect at it, so most won't bother.) Knowing that you don't know is a good start.

And by the way, neurotypicals also fail at empathy quite often, they just cover it better, and recover from a blunder faster. They kinda do it in a way that is more socially acceptable. For example, they sometimes misinterpret another person in a way that makes the other person go "wtf?", but all onlookers go "wow, that was an awesome example of empathy". While you, if you misinterpret someone, that person goes "wtf?" and everyone else goes "wtf?" too. Maybe the proper way to put it is that neurotypicals are very good at reading the feelings of a crowd, but it is hit-and-miss with reading the feelings of one specific person. On the spectrum, it is hit-and-miss with one person, and almost sure miss with a crowd.

Also, look at the compatibility of their words and actions. If someone says "I am okay", but they keep yelling and hitting things, they are probably not okay. But confronting them about it directly is not helpful. Maybe later, if they calm down, you could ask them "yesterday, when you said you were okay, you also..., so I am confused". Here it depends. Some people will explain. Some will get angry again; in that case, don't try this with the same person again, find someone else to talk to.

For long-term understanding of other people, focus on what they do, instead of what they say. The past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. If someone keeps talking about how they are going to do this or that, but they never do it, just assume they never will. Someone keeps doing something, then says excuses and promises to never do it again, but keeps doing it, just assume that they will keep doing it. The words can provide additional information to actions (e.g. "I hit you because I was angry"), but cannot erase the action (whatever was the reason, it is a fact that the person hit you, and you should not forget that, especially if that happens repeatedly). Words are "maybe", repeated actions are "the real thing". (Repeated words do not become any more reliable. Unless you mean "reliable prediction of what the person will say the next time", of course.)

People are different. Some are liars, some are manipulators, some are confused, some are sincere. Sometimes your problems with understanding a specific person are a result of that specific person being difficult to understand. Don't worry too much about understanding one specific person; pay attention to understanding people in general. It is possible that your understanding of other people will gradually improve, and yet that one person will remain just as mysterious as before. Count that as a success, not as failure.

People are more similar to each other than it may seem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect Most people are insecure, with various degree of denial. (Major exception: psychopaths. Charming people who usually refuse to discuss what is inside them, because there is barely anything beyond emptiness and hunger.)

Like all skills, empathy improves with practice. It would probably be useful if you could find someone to observe you at social situations, and discuss with them the situations afterwards. Probably more than one person, because each person will have their own biases and projections.

Maybe try to read some books or watch videos on Rogerian therapy. Simply said, it is a way to communicate with people in a therapeutical setting without imposing your own ideas of how they feel. (If you don't know how they feel, and you know that you don't know, that should make it even easier.)

This is just a random stream of thought, I hope it is useful, and I definitely have no scientific evidence for any of that. Good luck!