[curryst]

> You could have learnt a musical instrument or developed some other accomplishment that lasts a lifetime.

These "classical" hobbies are vastly over-valued in my opinion. I spent almost a decade learning to play violin, and while the appreciation for music has been valuable, the actual skill of being able to play the violin has been largely useless. I also quit when I was no longer forced to play for school, and probably can't even read the sheet music anymore. It's by no means a life long skill like riding a bike.

Phrased another way, I don't see much that validates being able to play a musical instrument as more valuable than being good at a particular genre of video games. Music has existed for far longer, so it has a certain level of prestige as a long-standing part of our culture. Music can be shared with others, although Twitch seems to imply there are a substantial number of people interested in watching other people play video games.

There are various studies about the tangential benefits of music, there are likewise for video games. I don't know that one comes out clearly ahead.

Video games are more likely to give you real world skills. As more and more of the world moves online, skills that you pick up trying to get games to work or trying to make them run faster can be valuable. Online etiquette is another thing you tend to learn (hopefully, instead of just being toxic).

Learning an instrument is also not without pain. When I played, probably 75% of the time I was playing I wasn't actually doing anything enjoyable, I was working on committing a piece to memory, or practicing a piece, or doing exercises to work on my finger strength or flexibility. I don't feel like learning an instrument is less "grindy".

[psychomugs]

As a counterdote, I both played video games and played music (band, church groups, self-studying) for significant amounts of time in my youth. I still play music today and my only regret is not spending more time on it earlier, whereas I regret spending so much time on video games. The collaboration and shareability of music is unparalleled; I can connect with people and actually create something that is an expression of myself and my collaborators, and even people who've never picked up an instrument can appreciate pleasant-sounding music. With video games, you really need to know the mechanics of a specific game to appreciate someone else's performance, and very rarely do the results of a video game manifest itself in the real world apart from the consequential skills you may pick up.

The problem of quitting music once it's no longer compulsory is endemic and I think more rooted with pedagogy than music itself as a medium. I staved it off because I was largely self-taught for theory and the instruments I currently play (piano, guitar), whereas people who were forced into lessons or only did it to fill an elective slot in school quit once they were able to. I've gone months-long stints without dedicated practice, but to me it's closer to an unforgettable skill than riding a bike is (because I don't know how to ride a bike).

[arvinsim]

> the collaboration and shareability of music is unparalleled;

Music has been around since the dawn of mankind. Video games has been around 20-30 years?

I will not be surprised when 100 years from now, video games will be the acceptable hobby while playing instruments would be seem as quaint when one can just tweak some params in some AI models to generate good music.

[psychomugs]

*Video games /have/ been around

If anything, this statement is a testament to music's endurance as an expressive medium. As mentioned by others on this discussion, video games are largely consumable media with products that don't extend beyond the screen.

The whole AI-replacing-creativity debate is a large can of worms. Yes, there are already generative music models that can create pleasant-sounding music, but for many practitioners, the process is more important than the product. There's a reason people still perform live in front of audiences when it would be more reasonable and convenient to play lossless recordings at home.

[arvinsim]

> As mentioned by others on this discussion, video games are largely consumable media with products that don't extend beyond the screen.

And the same has been said about the TV. That it would never be mainstream.

My point is that video games is in its infancy. It has potential to be an art form, especially if VR/AR takes off once we get powerful enough hardware.

> There's a reason people still perform live in front of audiences when it would be more reasonable and convenient to play lossless recordings at home.

And there is a reason why people still enjoy playing video games even if people stigmatize it as a time sink. It's not about efficiency or productivity.

[psychomugs]

Why not extrapolate this argument to non-video games then? Why have card or board games not usurped music as a dominant hobby in the millennia that they've been around?

I won't debate that video games don't have merit as artistic media; some of my favorites from my adolescence have had positive effects on my world view and self in the same way works in television and film have, and I cut my teeth on advanced piano arrangements from video game music (specifically Kyle Landry's). I think that the problem lies in video games being a demanding medium that often rewards mindless grinding and non-transferrable skills. In McLuhan's terms, it's a hot (demanding) medium that only has the benefits of a cool (passively consumed) medium [1].

To say that music will somehow cede to video games eventually, when music has been around for literal eons, is flippant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understanding_Media#%22Hot%22_...

[stickfigure]

I grew up with the standard piano lessons as a kid, dabbled with guitar, but never really got competent at anything. Assumed I was not musical. Until picking up a banjo about 7 years ago.

Some music is about performance, but that requires a level of dedication I don't have. Bluegrass is music designed for a bunch of people to get together and have fun. Some friends of mine picked up guitar, upright bass, mandolin, washboard... and suddenly we were meeting a couple times a week just to play and have fun. It was never a grind.

Child, startup, moving away from my bandmates, and covid got in the way so I'm out of practice, but I'm really looking forward to getting back to it when life returns to "normal".

I guess what I'm saying is - maybe you were playing the wrong music? There are lots of music genres that seem to focus more on fun than grind. Classical violin probably isn't one of them. Old-time fiddle on the other hand...

[mqrs]

> Video games are more likely to give you real world skills. As more and more of the world moves online, skills that you pick up trying to get games to work or trying to make them run faster can be valuable. Online etiquette is another thing you tend to learn (hopefully, instead of just being toxic).

This is begging the question more than a statement of real fact. What about magical combat against imaginary enemies, opening treasure chests, and completing collectibles is valuable in the real world? At least learning to play a musical instrument is actually doable in the real world.

One might argue that video games can teach someone to solve puzzles or to strategize towards an end when given a set of strengths and weaknesses, but if you really wanted usable critical thinking out of puzzles, you'd be better off grinding away at LeetCode and HackerRank. Strategizing towards any end requires the specificity of the context, too, and the world in video games is often very far from real.

And besides, if you really believe in video games--are you willing to raise a child to spend his youth and energy on video games instead of learning new skills?

[circlefavshape]

> probably can't even read the sheet music anymore. It's by no means a life long skill like riding a bike.

You might be surprised. I went back to piano after 10 years, and got back up to close to my old skill level quite quickly