[rootusrootus]

So you are basically answering the original question with "yes." Half the citizens in America have lost confidence in the electoral process, which is tantamount to saying that the nation is already doomed.

A lot of us are hoping that a significant number of Republican voters know the truth and are just playing hardball politics. That would be distasteful, but less alarming.

[knaq]

Likewise, a lot of us are hoping that a significant number of Democrat voters know the truth and are just playing hardball politics, not that it is much better.

You didn't want this result?

You should have thought about that when you supported weakening election security. Republicans aren't buying your excuses about the virus, or about black people being unable to get an ID card, or about anything else. You broke security on purpose. Any lack of evidence is because you purposely make it impossible to collect the evidence. (like a cop turning off his camera before doing evil) The result has been expected for months: a fraudulent Biden victory.

Next time, maybe cooperate on election security? Is that too much to ask?

Ink the fingers, since we're 3rd-world now. Have ID, just like India and Mexico do. All votes must be cast in person. Take extra pictures when voting (face, fingerprints, iris, retina), to better enable prosecution of misbehavior. No machine goes on a network. Every machine is observed by multiple unrelated people (don't know each other) for the entire time, starting from verification that it is empty and continuing until all recounts are completed. No excuses.

You asked for the current situation when you dismantled what little security we had. Expecting opponents to trust the result is absurd. You broke security because you knew that fraud in your favor would happen if people didn't have to worry about getting caught.

[mcphage]

> Expecting opponents to trust the result is absurd.

Did you trust the result in 2016? Do you trust the House results, or the Senate results?

[knaq]

Overall, yes, but not for all seats. New Hampshire was untrustworthy in 2016, both for the presidential electors and for the senator. Some of the house seats, particularly in California, were untrustworthy. Florida was nearly stolen via Broward County, and then again for governor/senator in 2018. Numerous seats were stolen in 2018 and 2020, though I do believe that overall control of the House could be legitimate.

I think you're implying that fraud could reasonably go both directions. I call your attention to the fact that felons are 5 to 7 times more likely to vote for democrats than republicans. Election workers who are willing to commit crime are clearly going to favor democrats. That just isn't the law-and-order party.

In any case, if you had an issue with the 2016 results, you should have cooperated to secure the elections. You didn't, because you know that you benefit from insecure elections.

The situation with fraud evidence is like a cop found with a dozen dead people, all shot between the eyes, and his body camera turned off. He says they all attacked him, and he was just a really lucky man. There is no evidence otherwise, because he disabled the camera. Didn't do anything bad? Sure...

[mcphage]

> I call your attention to the fact that felons are 5 to 7 times more likely to vote for democrats than republicans.

Well, that is what happens when one party seeks to remove your ability to vote, and the other defends your ability to vote.

> That just isn't the law-and-order party.

I’m amazed that you can imply that the Republicans are the law and order party, and not realize that you’ll get laughed at. Mad props.

[knaq]

Causation goes the other way. Nobody thought felons should vote until democrats realized that it would tip elections.

Oh, my mistake on the law and order. I should go Burn Loot Murder, rioting every night. Seriously? Portland is not a republican stronghold. The most crime-ridden places vote democrat.

I'll grant that Kamala Harris loved to prosecute crack users with a law that Joe Biden introduced, and that Donald Trump reduced the penalty. I'm not sure you want to take credit for the law that locked up lots of black people, but you may.

[mcphage]

Law and order and some light treason: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/529926-texas-gop-ch...

But maybe you’ll think of a way to secede without a bit of the ol’ Burn Loot Murder, you’re a bright lad.

[nl]

In almost every democratic country around the world felons can vote once they have served their sentence.

[rootusrootus]

> You should have thought about that when you supported weakening election security

It's difficult to take Republicans seriously when they didn't file a constitutional lawsuit against every state who implemented vote-by-mail in response to covid-19, just the four states that would need to be disqualified in order to make Trump the winner.

> Next time, maybe cooperate on election security? Is that too much to ask?

Sure, no problem. Fund the FEC and make it their mandate to find every eligible citizen and issue them a free election ID card. If your answer continues to be 'make it a state ID, and by the way we will make it so DMV is only open one day every two weeks for a couple hours in this black neighborhood over here' then it just looks like continued attempts at voter suppression.

You can't try to pretend you are acting in good faith when it is so obvious you aren't.

[knaq]

Nobody sane would waste money on a lawsuit in a state that doesn't matter.

It's just plain racist to suggest that black citizens don't have ID. It is required for guns, which are actually a constitutional right unlike voting for president. It is required to buy beer, rent an apartment, use most government benefits, or get a job. It's even required to enter many campaign events for democrats! So, that doesn't sound like good faith at all.

Funding the ID is fine. Some bullshit election ID card is no good. It needs to meet the normal standard, as specified by the Real ID Act of 2005. The US passport would be acceptable; let's make those free. The military ID would be acceptable.

Say, want to bias it against republicans who never travel to foreign countries? Make a US passport the only valid identification. I'm fine with that.

[nl]

There's not an iota of evidence of the significant fraud you believe has occurred, and it's been tested in multiple courts in multiple states.

You are right that many people believe it did. And that's a huge, huge problem.

Can you explain any evidence at all that would convince you?

[knaq]

At this point in time, it's too late. Step 1 of the steal was the intentional security reduction. It prevented most evidence from being collected, and this made it easier and less scary to commit the crime. (we did get a horrifying Georgia video and then some absurd excuses, plus the Minnesota ballot purchase video, plus the Texas Judge with the pile of fake ID, plus the Texas door-to-door coercion, etc.)

As I wrote above, for future elections:

"Ink the fingers, since we're 3rd-world now. Have ID, just like India and Mexico do. All votes must be cast in person. Take extra pictures when voting (face, fingerprints, iris, retina), to better enable prosecution of misbehavior. No machine goes on a network. Every machine is observed by multiple unrelated people (don't know each other) for the entire time, starting from verification that it is empty and continuing until all recounts are completed. No excuses."

There was no legitimate excuse for destroying what little election security we had. You wouldn't have done that if you wanted to hold a valid election, but you wanted to "win" at any cost.

Some ominous words slipped out of Biden's mouth when speaking to voters in Michigan: "I don't need you to get me elected!"

[nl]

As I said:

> Can you explain any evidence at all that would convince you?

And your response (TL;RD): "no".

You've drunk the cool aid, and it's a religion for you. I'm sorry for the state you have reached.

[rootusrootus]

Any widespread fraud (and it would need to be widespread indeed, without the benefit of hindsight) would leave ample evidence. The conspiracy required to pull it off is mind-boggling, and keeping that a secret essentially impossible.

Ironically, Biden supporters have a better argument for believing in fraud conspiracies, given that Trump over-performed significantly compared to expectations in both of the last two elections. One man's "oh the polls must all have been wrong" is another man's "there were millions of illegal votes."

This is a scary time for the country. I sincerely hope this is just a personality cult and will fade along with Trump. Garden variety issue politics are at least halfway rational.